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Unread 02-11-2014, 02:46 PM   #106
RoldGold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo_90xj View Post
IMO, MPI engines don't run like crap, but they do run fairly rich. I odn't wanna keep the engine run rich for 20 minutes, having the cold oil hardly lubricate the engine, instead of getting the engine and motor oil up to normal operating temps in a couple of minutes.

Keep in mind not even full synth motor oils provide their best lubricating and protecting qualities at very low temps. You want to get that oil to warm up pretty fast under fairly light engine loads and normal operating RPMs. Engines are designed to operate the best at certain RPM range, and it definitely isn't idle RPMs Unless the vehicle manufacturer or an idiot light on the gauge cluster specifically instructs one not to drive before certain coolant temp is reached, a long warm up period isn't needed.


..and no, I wouldn't jump into a vehicle at 0*F, fire it up and start driving right away. That'd be just stupid.




I don't expect my "propaganda" to have an effect at anybody. However, like I wrote earlier, I share my "crap" here so I can try helping some people understand what can extended idling do to a cold engine.

I definitely am pretty stumped so many of you actually prefer having a cold engine idle for a long time in cold, while here across the ocean it's considered bad practice by most of us living in the colder regions. I guess it's a cultural difference then?


Knowing the average passenger vehicle age here is over 12 years with 150-250k miles (thanks to government for taxing new vehicles very heavily), and having annual mandatory vehicle inspection performed with a fairly strict emissions test on '93-> vehicles (an engine burning oil even slightly more than normally isn't gonna pass), and we don't get too much vehicles rejected because of emissions tells me the method we prefer using here isn't destroying engines very quickly


I honestly don't know how quickly an engine is gonna be worn badly using extended cold weather idling/ heat- up procedure, but the studies I've seen suggest a single cold start + extended idling with an engine using full synth oil can be an equivalent of driving up to couple hundred miles on a warm engine. Sounds like a lot to me though, and I find it hard to believe it'd be that much, but who knows..
For the record, I appreciate your advice. I never warmed up my Jeep for any longer than 45-60 seconds before (gas is expensive...), but I certainly won't now. Your reasoning makes the most sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by herqulees View Post
All of us on this forum would of been a great addition to that movie. The great Jeep migration across the pacific to Australia. Could be a bit of a comedy too. "Day ten on our journey; only five blower motor connector repairs were needed and no casualties, a large improvement from the previous days of ten or more resulting in people freezing to death in some ZJs. On a continued brighter note ZJ drivers are showing less stress due to their rear wipers breaking and thus not being able to watch the deep freeze that chases behind us and faulty dash dimmer switches causing a dance-club-like interior."
Now this, is funny stuff!!

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Unread 02-11-2014, 02:46 PM   #107
herqulees
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 970001zj View Post
that is what i call running like crap why would you think this is ok ?

you cant do anything about the diff's or case fluid but at least get the damned engine warmed up
So simply because all the oils in the drivetrain are cold and robbing HP you think that means the engine is running bad? Where in the world is the logic in that. Say you have a 200HP engine, it is still making 200HP when everything is cold just more of that HP is going towards making the drivetrain actually move and thus less is available for the wheels.
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Unread 02-11-2014, 05:00 PM   #108
970001zj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herqulees View Post
So simply because all the oils in the drivetrain are cold and robbing HP you think that means the engine is running bad? Where in the world is the logic in that. Say you have a 200HP engine, it is still making 200HP when everything is cold just more of that HP is going towards making the drivetrain actually move and thus less is available for the wheels.
yeah so its running like crap you get it now good job lil guy it took you a while but you did it

good for you !

but ring seal and bla bla your hp you should look into it and how metal changes size when it gets hot and cold and come back later
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Unread 02-11-2014, 07:52 PM   #109
herqulees
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 970001zj View Post
yeah so its running like crap you get it now good job lil buddy it took you a while but you did it

good for you !

but ring seal is going to effect hp you should look into it and how metal changes size when it gets hot and cold and come back later
You clearly are lacking enough intelligence for me to even bother continuing this discussion... Try speaking like an adult and getting a bit better understanding on how vehicles work then try again later. Also considering I've rebuilt a Jeep 4.0 I6, a Ford 302, plus various CAT, Cummins, and Detroit diesels I know my way around an engine and all about clearances between every moving part in an engine. Was I able to do it 100% by my self? No I chose to have an assistant because I was least experienced in the shop and thus could never be fast enough while remaining reliable, which is a no-go in a professional environment, but I still learned everything. Bottom line still remains a properly running engine does not run "like crap" when cold and my discussion on it ends there.
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Unread 02-11-2014, 08:09 PM   #110
970001zj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herqulees View Post
You clearly are lacking enough intelligence for me to even bother continuing this discussion... Try speaking like an adult and getting a bit better understanding on how vehicles work then try again later. Also considering I've rebuilt a Jeep 4.0 I6, a Ford 302, plus various CAT, Cummins, and Detroit diesels I know my way around an engine and all about clearances between every moving part in an engine. Was I able to do it 100% by my self? No I chose to have an assistant because I was least experienced in the shop and thus could never be fast enough while remaining reliable, which is a no-go in a professional environment, but I still learned everything. Bottom line still remains a properly running engine does not run "like crap" when cold and my discussion on it ends there.
know how i know your full of **** ?

i know because insulting someone and helping to put an engine together does not make you a learned person it makes you a greenhorn no0b with an over inflated level of self esteem and a grammar nazi too lol

naio go on and play the men are talking
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Unread 02-12-2014, 03:21 AM   #111
Timo_90xj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herqulees View Post
I keep asking you to provide these tests you talk about but you have yet to give them, making me think this is all personal opinion you're giving, which most of what I'm saying is too since I haven't done any such tests, but my point is opinion vs opinion is lose lose unless someone can prove the other wrong.
The tests I've seen referred to are donwe buy ie. Finnish Techincal Resource Center (VTT). Problem is, most of their full publishments aren't free to read, you gotta pay for them. I've seen them being referred on quite a few car magazines though. There have been some other independent smaller studies too, and I've seen some mentions by lubricating oil manufacturers' websites on the engine lubricating and protection qualities in cold temperatures. Even the oil manufacturers noted that a vehicle sitting overnight in extreme cold temps lubricant like 0W-30 or 5W-30 can have the oil film on bearings to not be what is should. Those oils do have ingredients that prevent excessive bearing wear on ie. crankshaft and rod bearings, but it was adviced to have the engine warmed up fairly fast for the oil to warm up. Even better would be to never start the engine cold, instead using a block heater for about 2-3 hours to allow the engine and oil to be warmer and provide better lubrication. If not possible, it was adviced to let the engine idle for a couple minutes and then start driving nice and easy to warm up the engine and oil faster than idling.

I point out that if the vehicle manufacturer or an idiot light on the gauge cluster tells you not to do that, then don't.

Quote:
And just to add on to all of this, this argument is getting more and more dated to the point it doesn't really apply anymore to modern vehicles, the companies realize most people don't know or care about how to take care of an engine anymore, so they figured out how to make them better; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSLB...F6E74B&index=1
This is definitely true though, and modern engines are better in some way on this sense.
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Unread 02-12-2014, 03:40 AM   #112
970001zj
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seems like all this cold oil would blow an oil pump though even the thin high technorogy stuff
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Unread 02-12-2014, 04:01 AM   #113
Timo_90xj
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Most likely not. But if you look at your oil pressure gauge on a -5*F morning, you may notice it reads pretty high I myself was suprised how thick even 5W or 0W oil can be in extreme temps. Btw., a friend of mine just had his BMW at a shop due to oil blowing through seals because of CCV was plugged due to moisture within oil (changes 5k miles ago, only midway through an oil change interval). Only engine in normal operating temps is hot enough to vaporize moisture out of the oil. The longer engine stays cold, the longer it takes for moisture to be vaporized. Not exactly a common issue on most gasoline engines, but happens fairly often on the modern eco- diesels that don't even reach normal operating temps in very cold weather.
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Unread 02-13-2014, 10:32 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by herqulees View Post
While the stuff isn't a ripoff, it does its job. I just want to point out that it is typically unneeded, for gasoline vehicles at least. Ethanol fuel acts as its own antifreeze, and even ethanol free gasoline, while I have never seen/heard of a definitive study of the exact freezing temperature, does not have an easy to reach freeze point.
If anyone has more knowledge on gasoline freezing though I'm interested in the subject, ever since the scene in The Day After Tomorrow.
You are correct about gasoline not freezing, it's the (if any) WATER from condensation in the gas tank( and also from underground fuel storage) over the seasons is what of concern. Some little water in the fuel line is just enough to create an ice plug for your inconvenience....I'd rather pay the $5 of bottled insurance on getting to work on time.
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Unread 02-14-2014, 05:28 AM   #115
rubiconrich
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I've got something to say about all this. Over a half a century ago, we had problems with condensation in the gas tank and we used products like Heet. It works. The water which results from condensation is what freezes, not the gas. Another thing, water in oil from condensation is called sludge. To help expel sludge, we used to change our oil when our engine was up to operating temperature. We used to clean sludge from our crankcase and oil galleries by diluting our oil with diesel fuel, bring that up to operating temp for a few minutes and then drain the oil again. Some people would add Marvel Mystery Oil to their oil change to help clean the bearings during the time between oil changes. In the old days, we would idle our engines till the beginning of warm air would blow out our ducts. Why force thick oil under operating condition like driving? When you drive your car right away on those frigid mornings, you put your engine under load. When you put your engine under load, you have a good chance of lugging. Lugging is when you put too much load. That gives more wear to you crank and cam. One other thing to note, American engines have more bearing clearances than foreign. The guy from Finland says that their vehicles have to last for twelve years and 150 to 250 thousand miles. Heck, jeeps last alot longer than that in America. Also, never heard of vaporizing the water out of oil in your engine on warm-up. When water from condensation joins oil, it becomes sludge. The only way to get rid of that is thru an oil change described above.
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Unread 02-14-2014, 08:31 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by rubiconrich View Post
I've got something to say about all this...When you drive your car right away on those frigid mornings, you put your engine under load. When you put your engine under load, you have a good chance of lugging. Lugging is when you put too much load. That gives more wear to you crank and cam...
Bearings wear MORE when at slack load. I don't recall the term, but there is a technical term for free spinning / no load bearing stress.

Idle all you want to if you can't handle the weather and can afford to burn gas for nothing, but don't diss someone because you just don't want to believe them. Low RPM time is one of the reason city-driven vehicles die faster than cars that get a lot of highway mileage.

FWIW here in New England I have driven a lot of vehicles into the ground. With the exception of the 3.8 in my Olds 98 (which had a bearing fail at 235K miles) none of them became "dead" because of engine failure- they all ran great. They all died from rust or cumulative part costs exceeding vehicle value too much.

15 minutes of warmup is crazy at $3.55/gal for gas. Never mind that the only benefit is assuring one's candy behind doesn't get chilled
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Last edited by fishadventure; 02-14-2014 at 08:34 PM.. Reason: Oh: And I don't let a car idle to warm up more than maybe 30- 60 seconds usually
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Unread 02-14-2014, 08:52 PM   #117
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I'm sort of surprised no one here has mentioned the oil pan heaters. They are very effective at heating the oil in the pan and easy to put on. That way you will start pumping warm oil on start up and the oil will flow and do it's job and thats what you want. Oil can get just like thick honey (or even thicker) and will not pump well or want to be sucked by the screen. Then it needs to try and get by the filter and it will all be going to the bypass. It doesn't do much good to idle your engine as this honey tries to get to your parts. You may have pressure but not much flow. The easy way to think about it is, like you drink milk thru a straw and then try it with a cold milkshake and you get the idea. You can't until it warms up. The pan heater will heat the oil up just like thawing out the milk shake. but most of you all will not get that kind of cold a good 5w or 0w will get you by most of your temps. But something to think about and it will cut down your mistreatment of your engines. By the way you can but these on the trany's too.
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Unread 02-15-2014, 02:44 AM   #118
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Hey, fishadventure! First of all, I am NOT disrespecting anyone. That is something you read into it. "Idle all you want to if you can't handle the weather and can afford to burn for nothing"....gas was quite cheap over a half a century ago! We are talking 50+ years ago!
Also, your acidic response assumes I couldn't handle the weather. Actually, it was the norm to idle until warm air defrosted your windshield in Upstate New York. For a grown male of 48 years, you sure like to insult people! You took the time out to notice my candy behind? Are you gay???
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