1997 Jeep Grand Cherokee LMTD 4.0 Stalling-Dying-No Check Engine Codes- Please Help! - JeepForum.com
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Unread 08-30-2011, 06:40 PM   #1
anderson9700
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1997 Jeep Grand Cherokee LMTD 4.0 Stalling-Dying-No Check Engine Codes- Please Help!

My wife and I have owned this Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited, straight 6, 4x4, since it had 95k on it. It was a single owner vehicle and well maintained.We've maintained it perfectly and always ensure that it is in for its fluid changes early. Nearly 6 years later, it now has approximately 144k on it.

About a year and a half ago it began cutting out now and then. It would just die. However, you could restart it without fail.

Then it began to die while coming to a stop. Then it began to die at idle. Then it began to die while driving on the freeway and highway at much higher speeds.That's the progression. All without providing a check engine light.

We've read numerous threads on various forums, watched the You Tube vid's, and the like and have notated and applied the information we found there. I recall reading a few posts made on a few forums where the members stated that they had spent every dime they had over a 6 month period trying to fix it, now they are broke and without transportation because it won't start, they can't afford to fix it, the mechanic is clueless, and we thought, ... well, (cough, cough), we won't be one of those guys. Ha!

We have replaced all of the typical causes for such behavior and a few other things, to no avail.

Here's a list of what we have replaced and done thus far:

Diagnostics (Several Times)
Compression & Leakage Test (three times): Passed with perfect mesurement.
Spark Plugs
Wires
Distributor (Twice)
Cap & Rotor
Pick Up Coil
Ignition Coil
Power Steering Pump (unrelated issue - it broke)
Brakes (unrelated issue)
O2 sensors (front and back)
Timing Sensor (on the block)
Crank Shaft Position Sensor (Twice)
Fuel Pump (complete assembly with the filter included)
Two Hoses top-side of the engine block
PVC valves on top of the engine
MAP/MAFS Sensor
Throttle Position Sensor
Idle Control Module
Cleaned the Throttle Body
Inspected all hoses for leaks numerous times
Coolant Temperature Sensor
Battery
Battery Cables
Checked all connections numerous times
Checked for the correct readings on all sensors
Conducted Ground Test on Circuitry
Inspected PCM Harness
Inspected PCM Harness Screws
Replaced PCM Harness Screws
Ensured that they were approx. 1/4 distance out
PCM
BCM

Now, most of that, our mechanic has done. Never-the-less, here we are. And still with NO CHECK ENGINE LIGHT.

He's said that he's thoroughly checked the harness to the PCM and verified everything is properly grounded. He doesn't believe that it has anything to do with the connections or the wiring.

He also said that he thought that the whole idea of changing the screws holding the PCM in place was preposterous (so did the dealership), since the PCM is grounded anyways and that if it wasn't grounded there would be more serious problems then stalling. Dealership concurred. So the voo doo solution of modifying the screws as referenced in some other forums and circulating around the web, appears to be either shear non-sense or simply not applicable. Plus, there isn't any play where the wire harness connector plugs into the PCM. Its tight.

We've spent all of our savings and current cash flow on this vehicle at this point. Its been down for over a week (actually about three after all of the in and outs with the shop). We haven't even paid our bills at this point. I'm self employed and when I'm not driving my Jeep, I'm not making money. This is a critical moment in my life as I don't have enough money to purchase another vehicle right now.

Chrysler took a look at it once and said that they couldn't identify a problem. Diagnostics reflected everything as fine. I haven't taken it back as that was a fruitless effort and pricy.

My wife ran into a Chrysler Technician of thirty years the other day and he said that we ought to check the valve springs. However, that didn't seem right to me because it would seem like you would hear it rattle. When I forwarded that information to our mechanic, he assured me that if it were the valve springs, that it would definitely be a noticeable noise. There is no such noise.

Sometimes it just dies, sometimes it'll sound like its choking a bit while it dies or while it comes close to dying. Sometimes it dies at idle, sometimes while driving slow, sometimes at high rates of speed, sometimes while stopping.There does not appear to be any consistency with it. Sometimes it runs real rough and seems to lose power when taking off from a stopped position.

It does not make any unusual sounds or smells. When it originally began, it was just hard to start a couple of times and then for the first few months, seemed to only want to die when coming to a stop. Now it can be hard or very hard to start, and it will die unexpectedly with no check engine light or other signs of problems.

There is one exception to the engine light. On two occasions while driving at 50+ mph and climbing in elevation (long hills like going into the foothills of the mountains), it would choke and run rough for a bit, and then give a check engine light. However, it never died.

When I connected the OBD 2 scanner to it, it read: CYLINDER 2 MISFIRE DETECTED.

Though, the plugs were clean when I checked them. So were the valves. Though, I replaced them again. I did another compression and leakage test, and it passed. To make sure I wasn't missing something, I took it back to the mechanic and had them do a compression and leakage test on it. Afterwards, he said it passed perfectly.

So, my question to anybody who is a mechanic, anybody that does or has worked for Chrysler, anybody who has ever owned a Jeep and experienced a similar issue....

Do you have any idea what the cause could be and the best way, at this point, to resolve the issue and/or where to go from here?

Is it likely to be the Catalytic Converter?

ADDITIONALLY:
MECHANIC:
JUST TODAY - Replaced the crankshaft position sensor .... again. No avail. Same thing. Runs for awhile and then dies. Everything is as it should be according to the diagnostics and computer readings.

I've talked to a few shops and they are all clueless. Mechanic
also advised that he's talked to other mechanics he knows, a couple of
specialists, a former Chrysler Technician, and some other shop owners in
California that he knows, and they are all clueless at this point.

He said that he thought whatever it is that's causing the problem is most
likely something small because it doesn't have any issues with the
engine and most all other parts have been replaced now. ~ Doesn't make
me feel better.

He recommended that I bring it back to the dealership for further review. I'm stuck and can't afford to go to the dealership.

I'm wondering if it could possibly be the Catalytic Converter. However, when I've mentioned that to the mechanic, other mechanics, and others before, everybody said no. There's no odd smell or rotten egg type odor. But, it makes me wonder.

P.S. If you're in Seattle, please feel free to e-mail me for correspondence or to meet up.

Anderson9700@yahoo.com

Thanks everybody!


Last edited by anderson9700; 08-31-2011 at 01:44 AM..
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Unread 08-30-2011, 06:59 PM   #2
savannahzj
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Did you rplace the pcm, or just verify the connections?
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Unread 08-31-2011, 01:29 AM   #3
anderson9700
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We replaced the PCM and the BCM, and also physically checked the fitting of the connections and inspected the wires themselves for wear and cracks.

Additionally, we also tried cleaning the connections, using the brush and literally cleaning the connections, applying the gel, and then reconnecting with a '24 zip tie on each side of the harness connector and the PCM harness fitting and in the opposing direction.... to no avail.

So, 2 ties vertically, 2 ties horizontally.
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Unread 08-31-2011, 04:40 PM   #4
rooster51
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Now... did you replace the PCM, CPS, & CKS with Mopar products or off brand products?
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Unread 09-01-2011, 01:27 AM   #5
anderson9700
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The PCM was a re-manufactured PCM (not one of the refurbished ~ The mechanic warned us about those and ordered a re-manufactured for us).

The first Crankshaft Position Sensor (CPS), was a Duralast from AutoZone.
The second Crankshaft Position Sensor (CPS), was ordered from the Dealership with a special kit, by the mechanic. I'm unsure of the manufacturer. However, apparently, after installing this one and it making no difference, testing the duralast as well as the new one and confirming that they were both reading right and therefore "good", comparing notes with the dealership, and checking the return rate on the duralast brand with AutoZone, he returned the one from the dealership and left the Duralast CPS installed.

I'm not sure what the CKS is brother. I think the CPS is the Crankshaft Position Sensor. But, I'm not sure on the CKS.

Thank you so much for your responses guys. I can't tell you how much I appreciate knowing you guys are thinking about it. I know there's a lot to read, but I didn't want to just put a portion of the info in their simply to keep it short and not provide everybody with the full details. Thanks, it means a lot.
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Unread 09-01-2011, 01:30 AM   #6
anderson9700
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BTW ROOSTER... Thanks for adding the link to the thread regarding the discount to your signature. We don't have any Advance Auto's here in the NW, (though I remember them when I lived in Charlotte), but I'm sure I can call a store and have them ship the parts. If so, and if shipping isn't an issue, I'll be going to them from now on for my parts!

I'll be looking for the next replies... TTS
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Unread 09-01-2011, 05:59 PM   #7
rooster51
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CKS is camshaft positioning sensor, or now called ignition pick up module. Its just as crucial to spark as CPS, coil, plugs, wires, and rotar.
Open the distributer cap, remove the rotar, there it is. Unplug it and replace it, with a Mopar CKS.
Still, with all that is going on, and no code, I would suspect the PCM.
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Unread 09-01-2011, 07:21 PM   #8
anderson9700
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So, I got the Jeep back from the mechanic today. I talked with him about whether he thought it may be the Catalytic Converter, the PCM again, or the Camshaft Positioning Sensor (CKS ~ thanks Rooster). He said gave an in-depth explanation of why he didn't think the Catalytic Converter had anything to do with it and named several things (symptoms or signs) that were not present, but that should be present if it were the Catalytic Converter.

He didn't think that it was the PCM and reminded me that it would be the third one at this point, if he did another swap on PCM. However, I have read where others have gone through a few or more before they got one that worked, but he didn't think that it was the issue.

He also elaborated on the CKS a little and said that the readings were all correct and that he didn't think it was that.

Left with no other choice, I called another Chrysler Dealership. I explained to the service manager everything as posted above.

He was shocked at the amount of work that's been done so far and was, to my amazement, openly concerned that if I brought it in to them that the "guys," wouldn't really know what they hell their doing. He didn't say it like that, but he explained that the service guys he has in there now really only have experience with Dodge pick-ups and the like.

So, he said he knows somebody that has much more experience with Jeeps and specifically, the older Jeeps. So, he took my contact info and said that he would relay all the info and have the guy call me at his next opportunity. I was shocked that he was honest enough to tell me that he didn't feel his staff there had the experience to really address this one. I didn't exactly expect that from a dealership.

Until then, I'm just doing more research on-line and hoping for a miracle. I totally agree with you on the PCM. That's what I kept thinking too, because it wasn't producing a check engine light or code. But, damn, we've done it twice.
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Unread 09-01-2011, 07:27 PM   #9
anderson9700
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I'm going to walk up to O'Reily's and pick up a CKS. lol. I'll let you know if that does it! For as cheap and quick of a possible fix that is, I can't help but take a shot.
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Unread 09-01-2011, 07:44 PM   #10
rooster51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anderson9700 View Post
So, I got the Jeep back from the mechanic today. I talked with him about whether he thought it may be the Catalytic Converter, the PCM again, or the Camshaft Positioning Sensor (CKS ~ thanks Rooster). He said gave an in-depth explanation of why he didn't think the Catalytic Converter had anything to do with it and named several things (symptoms or signs) that were not present, but that should be present if it were the Catalytic Converter.

He didn't think that it was the PCM and reminded me that it would be the third one at this point, if he did another swap on PCM. However, I have read where others have gone through a few or more before they got one that worked, but he didn't think that it was the issue.

He also elaborated on the CKS a little and said that the readings were all correct and that he didn't think it was that.

Left with no other choice, I called another Chrysler Dealership. I explained to the service manager everything as posted above.

He was shocked at the amount of work that's been done so far and was, to my amazement, openly concerned that if I brought it in to them that the "guys," wouldn't really know what they hell their doing. He didn't say it like that, but he explained that the service guys he has in there now really only have experience with Dodge pick-ups and the like.

So, he said he knows somebody that has much more experience with Jeeps and specifically, the older Jeeps. So, he took my contact info and said that he would relay all the info and have the guy call me at his next opportunity. I was shocked that he was honest enough to tell me that he didn't feel his staff there had the experience to really address this one. I didn't exactly expect that from a dealership.

Until then, I'm just doing more research on-line and hoping for a miracle. I totally agree with you on the PCM. That's what I kept thinking too, because it wasn't producing a check engine light or code. But, damn, we've done it twice.
Whats surprising is his honesty. This forum has better Jeep trouble-shooting skills than the dealer and is constantly finding cures to problems the dealership can not or can only fix temporarily. Keep researching and fighting and you will get it fixed, although you may end up with all new sensors, wiring & a NEW new PCM.
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Unread 09-01-2011, 08:03 PM   #11
anderson9700
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Just getting ready to put the CKS in. I'll let you know how that goes.

Yeah, I agree. I'll keep you posted as I go here. I'm severely low on cash and limited in my options, so, if anybody else has experienced a situation with their Jeep that closely resembles this situation, please take a couple of moments and let me know your story.
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Unread 09-06-2011, 02:26 PM   #12
anderson9700
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The CKS replacement didn't work. I've called a different dealership and spoke with the service manager. He offered a bit of a break in the fee. They normally charge $144/hr. but he said he's willing to do it for $110.00/hr.

I told him everything I did and he was blown away, of course. He said that they just had a JGC 4.0 in-line 6 in there for stalling the other day and it ended up being a pinched fuel line. He said that he thought it could also be a pinched wire in the wiring harness.

I told him outright, if you're gonna get it in there and run the bill up for a few hours worth of work and then add 3,4,5, or 6, dollars worth in parts, you're going to end up owning it. He gave me a spill about how they won't run the bill up, and that they have two guys there that are experienced. One's been there 18 and the other's been there 39 years.

He said he's going to talk with them and call me back. I don't know what the hell to think anymore. Looks like I'm out of options though.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 09:22 PM   #13
anderson9700
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**UPDATE** ~ 4 WEEKS LATER....

So, we just got the Jeep back from the dealer in Everett, WA. No luck. They had it for a total of four (4) weeks and said that they could not get it to replicate the problem. Yet, after taking it home, it of course acted up within a day.

Its hard to believe that they had the Jeep for an entire month and were not able to get it to act up. I can't help but think that they hit brick wall on this one and couldn't figure it out. They gave it back to me and waived the bill. I've never heard of a dealership waiving a bill. Ever.

So, private mechanics are at a loss. The dealerships are at a loss. I'm at a loss. Yet, the problem persists.

Today, I replaced the driver's side door switch because it failed and the HUD continiously showed the door being open. That was unrelated, I know.

I also replaced the wires again. Even though, the ones I pulled out looked perfectly clean with no burn marks, discoloration, carbon, etc.

If there's a Jeep Master Mechanic or Backyard Master Mechanic that has a thought or opinion on this, I can't tell you how appreciative I'd be.

Thanks
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Unread 10-01-2011, 10:10 PM   #14
GraKee99
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It almost sounds like a van that my friend had. It would die and never had check engine lights, near smelt funny but would die randomly. It was a clogged catalytic converter. At this point, it might not hurt to replace it.
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Unread 10-13-2011, 04:48 PM   #15
anderson9700
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Brian,

Yeah, that's about where I'm at now. I'm getting ready to order one (apparently nobody keeps them in stock). I can't think of what else it could be and I've been leaning towards the catty for a little while now.

Yesterday, the damn thing died an an intersection in Seattle. I couldn't help but to laugh at the embarrassment while trying to push the heavy bastard across the intersection. All the while, enjoying the choir of fifty horns blaring at me.

I'll update after the catty's installed. >> Crossing Fingers <<
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