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Unread 08-10-2013, 07:01 PM   #1
singleshot
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2003 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oregon
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at wits end

2003 Sahara TJ 4.0 manual transmission/ 90K miles

History:
Last year I was having intermitted engine cut off issues and complete dash failures. This was remedied at the time by simply shaking the key in the ignition and everything would come back to life (most of the time while still clipping down the road at whatever speed I was making at the time).


Fast forward to now:
So the jeep sat for about 6 months during the winter/spring (sheís a hunting rig). I go out yesterday to dust her off, clean up what needs cleaning, oil change ect ect and sheís completely dead.

I put the battery charger on (battery at 0%), still wonít charge, so I put the jumper cables on it to jump start the charge and it she takes off charging.

Well, Iím a little impatient, so I try to start her up while sheís on the charger (charger has a starting mode) and she wonít start.

So I at this point in time I have no gauges working. The mileage shows, the lights come on when I turn the lights on (the high beam indicator flashes now on low beam and stays solid when on high beam).
I also have the rear defroster on the hard top constantly on and will not turn off.

So yesterday was spent trouble shooting and throwing parts at it.
Every connector I could find has been unplugged and plugged back in. I didnít find one that had any sort of corrosion.
All fuses and relays have been checked, swapped and swapped again.
Iíve replaced the ignition actuator pin.
Iíve replaced the camshaft sensor.
Iíve replaced the crankshaft sensor.

As far as the engine is concerned, Iím suspecting fuel as my issue. I have yet to hear my fuel pump running (even laying under it and having the wife turn the key on). Iíve had the wife crank the engine over while I depressed the plunger on the fuel rail and nary a trickle come out. I did shoot a bunch of starter fluid down the intake and got it cough (which is a huge leap at this point). Iíll be checking the power at the plug down by the tank and seeing if there is any power down there tomorrow.

Where Iím lost is the gauge cluster not working and the rear defrost constantly on (and could this possible be symptom of something larger thatís not sending power to the fuel pump).

Today the battery was almost dead, so I know sheís a gonerÖ I will be replacing it after I see some life out of the engine.

Oh, and I always fill the tank to the brim after hunting season, so I know sheís got gas.

Obviously Iím missing something at this point in time and I could really use the greater knowledge of this forum. If anyone has any ideas, Iíd greatly appreciate it.


Summary:
Last year, intermitted loss of power to gauge cluster and engine shutting off. Remedy: jiggle key.

Currently:
No gauge life whatís so ever. Gauge lights up, high beam indicator flashes when lows are on, stays on like normal when highs are activated, blinkers and hazards work as normal.
Rear defroster on constantly.
Fuel pump doesnít appear to working.

Actions at this point:
Checked all wire harness plugs
Checked (and rechecked) all fuses and relays.
Replaced crank shaft sensor, cam shaft sensor and ignition actuator pin.

Thanks for any help or ideas


singleshot

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Unread 08-11-2013, 05:28 AM   #2
KLboxer
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Chester County, PA
Posts: 23
I would try replacing the battery before you do anything else. As new cars have gotten more complicated, and batteries have gotten smaller/cheaper, we've been seeing all kinds of strange behavior from dead batteries.

Some computers are very sensitive to voltage drops and they go completely spastic with a low voltage situation. The batteries seem prone to crashing out as soon as they are put under the slightest load when cells start going bad. I have found its not uncommon for a battery to be "un-jumpable" when cells go bad.

I just had this with both the wife's car ('04) and my motorcycle ('08 )) Neither would take a jump and both had all sorts of weird electrical symptoms. Both batteries went from 12+ volts standing to 3-4 volts when you turned the key. They would recover to 8-10 volts after a few seconds, but that low voltage really messed with all the systems.
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Unread 08-11-2013, 10:08 AM   #3
bigfootdave
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Posts: 61
Agree on battery issue being number 1 priority.

If no start, go back to the fuel pump possibility. Check for pump noise and fuel at the rail as you did before. If you still have fuel issue, check relay by trading it with another in the PDC box.

Good luck and let us know how it works out
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Unread 08-11-2013, 01:18 PM   #4
laybackman
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Agreed! The battery must be fully charged before you can move forward with fixing this YJ. If the voltage/amperage is too low it will not start, period.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 04:16 PM   #5
singleshot
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First off, thank everyone for the replies and idea's.

I put a new battery in this afternoon; no change what's-so-ever. All issues persist..

I tested the fuel pump power at the connector and had juice there. I also had my daughter jump the fuel pump relay while I depressed the valve on the fuel rail and had gas blowing everywhere (so I know the fuel pump is working). I then tried to start the jeep while jumping the fuel pump, but she wouldn't start.

Now there are 4 or 5 relays of the same ID in the box. I have tried three different relays from different positions to see if it's a relay issue, but it appears to not be one.

Thanks again for the replies... Any thoughts from anyone?
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Unread 08-13-2013, 05:40 PM   #6
bigfootdave
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Okay, no matter how goofy this sounds, try this and see if we can't jump start the instrument cluster...

Ignition switch off
Hold in trip reset button
While holding button in, switch ignition to on, don't hit start !
Wait until the tach and speedo make a full sweep and the cluster puts on a light show....it should!
After all of that is done, turn ignition to off and release the trip button....the cluster should be ready to play, so give it a whirl and see if it starts.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 05:44 PM   #7
singleshot
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Location: Oregon
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I've tried the instrument cluster thing with the ignition and holding the trip meter button... It doesn't do a thing... :-(

I appreciate the idea'r though..
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Unread 08-13-2013, 06:29 PM   #8
laybackman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by singleshot View Post
2003 Sahara TJ 4.0 manual transmission/ 90K miles

History:
Last year I was having intermitted engine cut off issues and complete dash failures. This was remedied at the time by simply shaking the key in the ignition and everything would come back to life (most of the time while still clipping down the road at whatever speed I was making at the time).


Fast forward to now:
So the jeep sat for about 6 months during the winter/spring (sheís a hunting rig). I go out yesterday to dust her off, clean up what needs cleaning, oil change ect ect and sheís completely dead.

I put the battery charger on (battery at 0%), still wonít charge, so I put the jumper cables on it to jump start the charge and it she takes off charging.

Well, Iím a little impatient, so I try to start her up while sheís on the charger (charger has a starting mode) and she wonít start.

So I at this point in time I have no gauges working. The mileage shows, the lights come on when I turn the lights on (the high beam indicator flashes now on low beam and stays solid when on high beam).
I also have the rear defroster on the hard top constantly on and will not turn off.

So yesterday was spent trouble shooting and throwing parts at it.
Every connector I could find has been unplugged and plugged back in. I didnít find one that had any sort of corrosion.
All fuses and relays have been checked, swapped and swapped again.
Iíve replaced the ignition actuator pin.
Iíve replaced the camshaft sensor.
Iíve replaced the crankshaft sensor.

As far as the engine is concerned, Iím suspecting fuel as my issue. I have yet to hear my fuel pump running (even laying under it and having the wife turn the key on). Iíve had the wife crank the engine over while I depressed the plunger on the fuel rail and nary a trickle come out. I did shoot a bunch of starter fluid down the intake and got it cough (which is a huge leap at this point). Iíll be checking the power at the plug down by the tank and seeing if there is any power down there tomorrow.

Where Iím lost is the gauge cluster not working and the rear defrost constantly on (and could this possible be symptom of something larger thatís not sending power to the fuel pump).

Today the battery was almost dead, so I know sheís a gonerÖ I will be replacing it after I see some life out of the engine.

Oh, and I always fill the tank to the brim after hunting season, so I know sheís got gas.

Obviously Iím missing something at this point in time and I could really use the greater knowledge of this forum. If anyone has any ideas, Iíd greatly appreciate it.


Summary:
Last year, intermitted loss of power to gauge cluster and engine shutting off. Remedy: jiggle key.

Currently:
No gauge life whatís so ever. Gauge lights up, high beam indicator flashes when lows are on, stays on like normal when highs are activated, blinkers and hazards work as normal.
Rear defroster on constantly.
Fuel pump doesnít appear to working.

Actions at this point:
Checked all wire harness plugs
Checked (and rechecked) all fuses and relays.
Replaced crank shaft sensor, cam shaft sensor and ignition actuator pin.

Thanks for any help or ideas


singleshot
Do you find your ignition key hard to turn to any position? Maybe the problem is in the interlock (can't start it in gear thingy) system.

Maybe that is why jiggling the key helps?

Or you lose the ignition circuit in the steering column that 'tells' the ECU you want the engine to run.
__________________
Chicks dig me.....Fish fear me

Getting older, I have developed some special skills. I have the ability to cough, sneeze, fart and pee at the same time.

"If we cannot afford to take care of Veterans, then we should stop making them."
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
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Unread 08-13-2013, 06:48 PM   #9
singleshot
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oregon
Posts: 107
Okay.... Gauge cluster popped to life again (intermitted) like it did a year or so ago. She still won't start though.

I ran the gauge cluster game:

04-04
Bus 15
31114

Gauge ran though the test as normal...

I have yet to hear the fuel pump while working the ignition and the gauges come to life and die with no prompting or messing with things by me (in other words, I'll be sitting there staring at the non-working gauges and all the sudden they'll come to life). I'm sure it's sure will-power that's making them work :-)

So... There was a brief time after I replaced the actuator pin in the ignition where the turning of the key was stiff, but it seemed to smooth out as normal after a few turns.

I am leaning towards the ignition circuit where I'm turning the key to engage the starter and part of the circuit quits working telling the rest of the stuff to work... If that's even possible..... But given what I'm seeing, that's what the symptoms would direct...

Heck, the dang rear defrost even shuts off when the dash comes to life.


Still at a loss :-(
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Unread 08-13-2013, 06:53 PM   #10
laybackman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by singleshot View Post
Okay.... Gauge cluster popped to life again (intermitted) like it did a year or so ago. She still won't start though.

I ran the gauge cluster game:

04-04
Bus 15
31114

Gauge ran though the test as normal...

I have yet to hear the fuel pump while working the ignition and the gauges come to life and die with no prompting or messing with things by me (in other words, I'll be sitting there staring at the non-working gauges and all the sudden they'll come to life). I'm sure it's sure will-power that's making them work :-)

So... There was a brief time after I replaced the actuator pin in the ignition where the turning of the key was stiff, but it seemed to smooth out as normal after a few turns.

I am leaning towards the ignition circuit where I'm turning the key to engage the starter and part of the circuit quits working telling the rest of the stuff to work... If that's even possible..... But given what I'm seeing, that's what the symptoms would direct...

Heck, the dang rear defrost even shuts off when the dash comes to life.


Still at a loss :-(
So... There was a brief time after I replaced the actuator pin in the ignition where the turning of the key was stiff, but it seemed to smooth out as normal after a few turns.

That should not have been so. Think brand new vehicle. The ignition turned smoothly. It isn't and I think that is where you need to concentrate your efforts.
__________________
Chicks dig me.....Fish fear me

Getting older, I have developed some special skills. I have the ability to cough, sneeze, fart and pee at the same time.

"If we cannot afford to take care of Veterans, then we should stop making them."
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
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Unread 08-13-2013, 06:58 PM   #11
KLboxer
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Location: Chester County, PA
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At least the battery wasn't wasted money since it needed replacing anyway.

My next step would be to check the grounds starting with the battery grounding cable. If the grounding cable is old, be aware that they can go bad under the covering and it can be hard to detect defects. Checking/cleaning grounds is easy and free so it can't hurt.

After that, I'd probably start troubleshooting the ignition lock, computer, and instrument cluster. You may want to find a wiring diagram and see if there is any hint as to why the defroster is part of the symptom chain (that's what makes me lean toward a grounding issue)

One other simple thing to try is a spare key rather than the key you usually use. I've seen worn keys/ignition locks do strange things. If its a chipped key and the chip has gone wonky, it might explain the no-start condition.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 07:02 PM   #12
KLboxer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by singleshot
Okay.... Gauge cluster popped to life again (intermitted) like it did a year or so ago. She still won't start though.

I ran the gauge cluster game:

04-04
Bus 15
31114

Gauge ran though the test as normal...

I have yet to hear the fuel pump while working the ignition and the gauges come to life and die with no prompting or messing with things by me (in other words, I'll be sitting there staring at the non-working gauges and all the sudden they'll come to life). I'm sure it's sure will-power that's making them work :-)

So... There was a brief time after I replaced the actuator pin in the ignition where the turning of the key was stiff, but it seemed to smooth out as normal after a few turns.

I am leaning towards the ignition circuit where I'm turning the key to engage the starter and part of the circuit quits working telling the rest of the stuff to work... If that's even possible..... But given what I'm seeing, that's what the symptoms would direct...

Heck, the dang rear defrost even shuts off when the dash comes to life.

Still at a loss :-(

Might want to recheck your work on the actuator pin, but a lot of what you posted would make me think "bad ground"
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Unread 08-13-2013, 07:13 PM   #13
laybackman
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Entertain me..... crawl under the rig and unplug the VSS sensor plug on the t-case. See if it starts then.
__________________
Chicks dig me.....Fish fear me

Getting older, I have developed some special skills. I have the ability to cough, sneeze, fart and pee at the same time.

"If we cannot afford to take care of Veterans, then we should stop making them."
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
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Unread 08-13-2013, 07:37 PM   #14
singleshot
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Checked all the grounds I could find (loosened, dielectric greased and retightened)..

I got my dash working fairly consistently now (pulled and re-cleaned all the connections, again.. 3 times a charm I guess)..

In doing so, I've got two codes:

P 1282, Fuel Pump Relay Control Circuit An open or shorted condition detected in the fuel pump relay control circuit.

P 0523, Oil Pressure Sens High Oil pressure sensor input above acceptable voltage.

I'm going out in a few minutes to disconnect the battery and see if that clears them and try to see if they come back..

I've got the column pulled apart, so I'll take the ignition/actuator pin out and double check them
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Unread 08-13-2013, 07:53 PM   #15
singleshot
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scratch the code thing... Disconnected the battery, ran it again and the codes didn't come back. Still doesn't start (radio works when the key is in the acc position, but not in the run position also)....?!?!?

I put the old actuator pin in with no positive effect all...
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