[KevinR]

Yes, in response to using just the hydrogen. My friend and I are currently working on a system to do just that. I'm not sure how long it will be until we get it working tho.

Does anyone know if a high voltage from the O2 sensor represents a rich or lean mixture?
Thanks

[Slithering_Joe]

Originally Posted by KevinR

Yes, in response to using just the hydrogen. My friend and I are currently working on a system to do just that. I'm not sure how long it will be until we get it working tho.

Does anyone know if a high voltage from the O2 sensor represents a rich or lean mixture?
Thanks

Oxygen sensors sample both exhaust gas and the outside air. The greater the difference between the amount of oxygen in the outside air to the exhaust stream will produce a voltage. Therefore, in a rich condition, no O2 in the exhaust, the voltage will approach 1.0V. In a lean condition where the O2 levels may reach equal concentrations between the exhaust and the outside air, the voltage will approach 0V.

(In an extreme case of a lean condition, I'm not sure what would occur in the oxygen sensor when to the higher O2 levels produced by the HHO process exceed the natural level of O2 in the atmosphere....negative voltage maybe?)

[KevinR]

So by what you're saying, resistors in the signal wire could work to lower the voltage and signal a lack of O2 (ie just enough resistors to match the stock voltage as explained by a previous poster)

[sportcoupe]

Originally Posted by KevinR

So by what you're saying, resistors in the signal wire could work to lower the voltage and signal a lack of O2 (ie just enough resistors to match the stock voltage as explained by a previous poster)

Resisters won't work. If you added one lowering the voltage the computer would see this as leaner and ADD more fuel. We don't want that. You need to install an EFIE box to add voltage on the signal wire so the computer thinks the exhaust is richer then it is and it will then remove some fuel to compensate.

[Slithering_Joe]

The resistor won't work because a resistor would only limit the current coming out of the O2 sensor not the voltage. The PCM acts as a high resistance voltmeter measuring the voltage across the O2 sensor which is the voltage source. The PCM measuring the voltage is independent of the very little current the O2 sensor may produce. (see Kirchoff's Law)

[slate210]

Originally Posted by Slithering_Joe

The other argument I had was the term efficiency being used in the nitrous oxide discussion.

I'm still surprised you didn't see that I was poking fun at the guy. Obviously nitrous is not going to increase your fuel efficiency. What it will do is greatly increase your power per unit of displacement efficiency while completely compromising fuel efficiency. Since fuel efficiency was the entire point of the thread, it should be obvious to someone as well versed as you that it was a joke.

Back to the thread. I'll believe that 36mpg or nearly 300% relative fuel efficiency when you provide at least some data. I could pull over 70mpg if I sampled while coasting, it's no major accomplishment. You said you only used part of a tank. How did you measure the fuel usage? How much Brown's gas was produced/used? I find it VERY hard to believe you could produce enough out of a little jar to see that kind of FUEL efficiency sustained.

[Slithering_Joe]

Originally Posted by slate210

I'm still surprised you didn't see that I was poking fun at the guy. Obviously nitrous is not going to increase your fuel efficiency. What it will do is greatly increase your power per unit of displacement efficiency while completely compromising fuel efficiency. Since fuel efficiency was the entire point of the thread, it should be obvious to someone as well versed as you that it was a joke....

Dude, I was mentioning it again for the main reason behind that there are other people reading this thread. Simple as that. I got your joke a long time ago after you cleared it up privately. Maybe not everyone got it.

[Flipside]

After spending the last half hour reading all the posts to this thread, I find myself amazed at how exothermic the OT conversation became. If only we could convert that energy into mechanical motion...

Perhaps I missed this somewhere along the way, but I do recall quite a bit of discussion about the alternator / electrical system and that it is a consumer of energy from the engine. However, I don't recall anyone talking about the capacity of this system being fully utilized. Given the alternator is part of the system: if what it is capable of generating is not needed by other systems, the difference from what it can do vs. what it is doing could be used for the OP's application. This energy could be considered 'free' energy. Net result, if the other systems are playing along nicely together, would be less 87 octane consumed per mile

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Flipside

After spending the last half hour reading all the posts to this thread, I find myself amazed at how exothermic the OT conversation became. If only we could convert that energy into mechanical motion...

Perhaps I missed this somewhere along the way, but I do recall quite a bit of discussion about the alternator / electrical system and that it is a consumer of energy from the engine. However, I don't recall anyone talking about the capacity of this system being fully utilized. Given the alternator is part of the system: if what it is capable of generating is not needed by other systems, the difference from what it can do vs. what it is doing could be used for the OP's application. This energy could be considered 'free' energy. Net result, if the other systems are playing along nicely together, would be less 87 octane consumed per mile

If you want to harness the alternator's unused energy, you'd be better off adding a small 12V electric motor to assist your gasoline engine, like a "real" hybrid. It still wouldn't be "free" energy, but probably more efficient (and effective) than all these electrolysis devices we're talking about.

[slate210]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

If you want to harness the alternator's unused energy, you'd be better off adding a small 12V electric motor to assist your gasoline engine, like a "real" hybrid. It still wouldn't be "free" energy, but probably more efficient (and effective) than all these electrolysis devices we're talking about.

Pretty valid point supporting those opposed to on board generation. Only one conversion, electrical to mechanical vs electrical to gas to heat/expansion to mechanical of the Brown's gas systems.

[Nazdreg]

Regardless of whether all this works, I was thinking if this would this give the Jeep a status as an "Alternative Fuel Vehicle", and allow me to get a sticker to legally drive (solo) in the HOV lane ?

A colleague of mine converted his Honda Civic to run on some type of gas... Natural/Butane/Propane I don't know, and besides not having to ever smog it again, he's trying to get the "Alternative Fuel Vehicle" sticker to allow solo driving in the HOV lanes.
How awesome would it be to legally drive the Jeep in front of some self-righteous Prius owner in the HOV lane .... priceless.

[jgorm]

I put together some info on fuel trims and how the the OBDII system works for my ford based customers, but it should apply for any obdii system. With a datalogger you could easily see if hho is doing anything at all by watching the trims. There is no point on resetting the ecu because that only resets the long term trims. The short term trims are in effect anytime you are in closed loop. Also note that O2 sensors actually read the stoichiometric point (lambda) and should add less gasoline when hho is being burned.

First we need to understand the difference between Open and Closed loop fueling. The vehicle will be in open loop under certain circumstances such as after startup for a minute or so, at WOT (wide open throttle), and sometimes under more rare circumstances like elevated ECT temps. When the vehicle is in open loop the fueling will be calculated based mostly off of the MAF/MAP sensor, but also takes many other things into account like IAT, ECT, TP, etc. There is no feedback in open loop (hence the name “open”). If the fueling is off the only way to really know is to monitor it with a wideband air fuel ratio gauge. Once the vehicle goes into closed loop the fueling is mostly calculated based off of input from the upstream O2 sensors. The O2 sensors measure the combustion gases for a target goal of ~14.7:1 (lambda =1.0) for gasoline. Different fuels have different air fuel ratios, but at their stoichiometric point (not lean, or rich) they will all read at lambda 1. Some people like to use lambda because the readings are the same for all fuels. When you use the air fuel ratio, the numbers will be different for fuel types. Here are a few examples for a lambda of 1 for different fuel types.

Gasoline 14.7:1
Diesel 14.6:1
Ethanol 9.0:1
Methanol 6.4:1
LPG 15.5:1
CNG 17.2:1
Hydrogen ~34:1

These ratios represent pounds of air needed for each pound of fuel to run at the stoichiometric ratio. When the air fuel ratio starts to go lean (higher than stoichiometric) the ecu will readjust the fueling (by injector pulse width) to correct the lean condition and bring the combustion back to lambda 1. This is a constant feedback loop (or a closed loop) and happens fairly quickly so it can alter the fueling over then next few engine cycles. The amount of correction can be viewed as the short term fuel trims (STFT) with an OBDII datalogger. The STFT can be displayed in different forms sometimes. With SCT software the value will be in the form of 0.75 to 1.25 indicating a -25% to +25%, while most other dataloggers will display the actual percent. If the STFT value is negative the ecu is adding fuel to correct for a lean condition. These STFTs can be viewed in real time with a datalogger and are in effect anytime the vehicle is in closed loop. After a certain period of time, if the STFT is off, the value will be stored in the ECU as the long term fuel trim (LTFT). The purpose of the LTFT is to bring the STFT back around 0% so that it can still adjust +25%. The LTFT can also adjust +25% giving a total of about 50% of possible adjustment. Using SCT software the LTFT will be opposite the STFT (LTFT of 1.25 is adding 25% fuel) while most other dataloggers will read the same way as the STFT. (don’t ask me why!). The LTFTs are stored in the ecu until it is reset by unplugging the battery, or flashing a new tune. Using the STFT and LTFT for engine component diagnosis will really help save some time. If it’s lean, look for a vacuum leak, bad injector or coil, or an exhaust leak upstream of the O2 sensor.

[bluballer]

This made the news.... 5% increase ..$1500 http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou080521_tj_hyrdoengine.182f65f0.html

[-Rudy-]

Originally Posted by bluballer

This made the news.... 5% increase ..$1500 http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou080521_tj_hyrdoengine.182f65f0.html

Yeah that's it... forget wasting our precious oil... let's waste our precious water! /facepalm

[chefdab]

Originally Posted by RudyxTJ

Yeah that's it... forget wasting our precious oil... let's waste our precious water! /facepalm

Um, 75% of the earth is covered in water. Not exactly limitless but a lot better than the limited amount of oil in the ground.