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Unread 09-06-2013, 03:55 PM   #1
dodge318
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trying to pull sun gear and input drum from AW4

I am half way through the dis-assembly of my AW4 to the point where the manual says to pull the sun gear, input drum, one-way clutch, and thrust washer out as a unit. Well those parts are not budging! I can wiggle them a little, and I can rotate them. It feels solid like there is a snap ring holding it but the last snap ring I found was holding the planetary gear in place so that has already been removed. Maybe I missed a step somewhere, but for the last 2 hours I can't find anything that it could be.

I am investigating the source of a bunch of large shavings I found in the pan. Up to this point everything has come out easily and nothing has looked worn.

Any ideas on getting this part to pull out?

Thanks!

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Unread 09-06-2013, 05:36 PM   #2
CJ7-Tim
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Go to the XJ Cherokee section of the Forum, and find the Tech/FAQ links page. Go to the link for the AW-4 Service and Diagnostics Manual and you should find what you need.
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Unread 09-06-2013, 07:27 PM   #3
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Thanks, CJ7-Tim, for the quick reply. I presume you are talking about the ATSG Manual? I've been following that same manual but maybe a little newer, which I found here:http://www.jeep4x4center.com/knowledge-base/. The figures and steps are the same but arranged on the page differently. I did compare the two manuals in the area where I am working but neither offers more detail other than just grab the gear and pull it out.

I've been through it a few times and don't see anything I missed. Wondering if maybe it requires more force? All the other parts were loose enough to come out without using a puller though. Tried a little nudge with a screw driver but to no avail. Could some trash be jammed in the splines to make it so tight.

I'm sure I'll do a face palm when I finally get it out.
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Unread 09-07-2013, 11:11 AM   #4
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I have swapped them, but have never rebuilt one, so I can't help there.

That is a genuine Factory Service Manual, and it should be 100% correct.
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Unread 09-09-2013, 06:58 PM   #5
dodge318
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So the best I can figure so far is that something might be jammed up inside one of the components behind the sun gear and input drum that won't let go of the other end of the sun gear. At this point it seems like I should be able turn the output shaft both clockwise and counter clockwise, however it only goes counterclockwise (looking toward rear end). Using air to operate the pistons or brakes does not change the ability to rotate both directions. Not coincidentally, erratic operation in reverse was why I dropped the pan in the first place, to discover a lot of little gnarled pieces of steel.

So I am wondering at this point if it is worth it to try using brute force to get it out(possibly braking lock rings and their slots), or would it be better to go buy a salvage AW4 ($100 around here) and plan on rebuilding it? Getting new torque converter either way.

Less time and lowest but effective cost is best for this daily driver.
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Unread 09-09-2013, 07:11 PM   #6
5-90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodge318 View Post
I am half way through the dis-assembly of my AW4 to the point where the manual says to pull the sun gear, input drum, one-way clutch, and thrust washer out as a unit. Well those parts are not budging! I can wiggle them a little, and I can rotate them. It feels solid like there is a snap ring holding it but the last snap ring I found was holding the planetary gear in place so that has already been removed. Maybe I missed a step somewhere, but for the last 2 hours I can't find anything that it could be.

I am investigating the source of a bunch of large shavings I found in the pan. Up to this point everything has come out easily and nothing has looked worn.

Any ideas on getting this part to pull out?

Thanks!
When tearing down the AW4, I found it necessary to make a few tools:

Using 1/4" aluminum rod 12" long, drill & tap the end (as close to on-center as possible) #4-40, and put a headless setscrew in. This will help with the large snaprings inside the case - put the setscrews in the holes in the snaprings, and squeeze the sticks together.

Using a steel bar (about 1"x1/2"x12", think, is what I used,) drill & tap the center 1/2"-20 through. Use 8" of 1/2"-20 threaded rod, put a nut on the end, pin or solder in place. (I pinned mine - more secure.)

You'll drill pairs of holes in various locations to pass the "grab bolts," but you're making a multi-purpose "bridge puller." The 1/2"-20 is a good thread for the ram screw, drill your other holes to about 7/16" or 1/2". You'll need (as I recall) threaded rod in M6-1.0, M8-1.25, and probably M10-1.5, with nuts & washers to match (get about 60cm/24" if you can, min. 30cm/12" if you cannot.)

Put the whole kit in a small box when you're done, expand as you find the need. The materials and work are MUCH cheaper than the "special tools" they tell you you need.

If you can't find the AW4 manual, hit me backchannel. I think I just scanned one, I just haven't made a .pdf of it yet. (I'm converting my Archives to digital format.)

The AW4 is actually one of the simpler slushboxen I've had on the bench - but it's just cranky enough that I wouldn't recommend it for a "first effort overhaul." So, be careful, be attentive, and be clean!
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Unread 09-09-2013, 08:07 PM   #7
dodge318
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Thanks 5-90.
I think I read some of your posts on the AW4 before I even started. Having instructions for the specials tools was a confidence booster. I have everything laid out in order on a table, either tagged or in a baggie containing smaller parts that go together. I do have the FSM too. It turned out that all the steps calling for the H puller came out by hand. Unfortunately this sun gear and input drum that have confounded me do not have a place to thread in a puller. When I pull on them, the drum at the very back also moves with it.
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Unread 09-10-2013, 01:21 AM   #8
mmerlinn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodge318 View Post
I am half way through the dis-assembly of my AW4 to the point where the manual says to pull the sun gear, input drum, one-way clutch, and thrust washer out as a unit. Well those parts are not budging! I can wiggle them a little, and I can rotate them. It feels solid like there is a snap ring holding it but the last snap ring I found was holding the planetary gear in place so that has already been removed. Maybe I missed a step somewhere, but for the last 2 hours I can't find anything that it could be.

I am investigating the source of a bunch of large shavings I found in the pan. Up to this point everything has come out easily and nothing has looked worn.

Any ideas on getting this part to pull out?

Thanks!
Just about everything falls out of the AW4 once the snap rings are removed. Since you had shavings in your pan, the most likely issue is that the gears in the rear planet, on the back of the shell, and around the planet are shredded and the result is that the burrs from the shredding are preventing you from easily removing the shell.

As far as tools are concerned, I have torn down thousands of AW4s with nothing more than common tools that everyone has plus a pair of snap ring pliers to remove the snap ring retaining the front planet to the output shaft. All other snap rings come out with screw drivers (plural). A complete teardown with no intention of reassembly takes me about 15 minutes start to finish. A teardown for reassembly would probably take me about 30 minutes to avoid losing/misplacing parts.
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Unread 09-10-2013, 06:12 PM   #9
dodge318
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After mmerlinns post I decided to give it a bit more elbow grease, and slowly it began to wiggle loose! Here is why it wouldn't come out. The sun gear and planetary are indeed pretty trashed.
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Unread 09-10-2013, 08:33 PM   #10
dodge318
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I found a replacement sun gear and planet on ebay for $87 total and they look real good from the pics. But for the rebuild kits out there I don't have any idea which brands are good. I have seen Precision kits on ebay for around $400 and OReilly has Pioneer for $350-$450, Advance Auto has Pro-King for $250, and I have seen Omix-Ada for around $400 at various places. I've seen posts in other forums were people don't like Omix for one reason or another.

Any have good experience with one of the brands? Or a different brand?
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Unread 09-12-2013, 01:58 AM   #11
mmerlinn
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Originally Posted by dodge318 View Post
I found a replacement sun gear and planet on ebay for $87 total and they look real good from the pics.
You need to change the ring gear also. If you carefully examine your current ring gear you will find damaged teeth in it, too. If you don't change it, you will have a howling transmission that will not last very long.

Since those parts seldom ever go bad (I have never seen bad ones in the hundreds of transmissions I have dismantled) it is not very likely that you will get bad ones regardless where you buy them.

As for kits, it probably does not matter much as there are only a few (like maybe 3, 4, or so) kit makers in the U.S. that all sellers buy from whether branded or generic.
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Unread 09-12-2013, 06:49 AM   #12
dodge318
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Thanks for the helpful info! I think I lucked out, the planet I bought came in a set.

I'm gonna pickup a tub, some parts cleaner, and some assembly lube on the way home today. Hopefully the parts will come in and I'll have it back together by next weekend.
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Unread 09-17-2013, 05:25 PM   #13
dodge318
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Maybe I should look for another case or salvaged tranny?

Today I starting cleaning everything getting ready for reassembly and I found some more trash that had been lodged between the No2 1st reverse brake piston and the tranny housing

It made scratches on the piston and some very small scratches on the housing. I can barely see them but can feel them easily with my finger. If I put in a new brake piston I worry about the o-ring wearing out early on those scratches even though they seem minor.

Is there any chance I could buff them with something to reduce the edges on the scratch and be ok? I definitely do not want to tear it down again because i took a short cut.
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Unread 11-10-2013, 08:27 PM   #14
dodge318
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Successful AW4 repair!

So I though I should bring this thread full circle. I hate reading other threads that start off addressing a problem and then end abruptly with no conclusion.

In summary, the Jeep experienced a thunk while driving one day and afterward made grinding noises in 1st and 2nd and slightly less noise in third. Reverse seemed to be gone until revving then engine and it would lurch and jerk backward.

Took it apart and found the rear planetary and sun gears and been mangled together. When I finally got them out, I found between them, a thrust bearing that had been completely ground to nothing more than a paper thin ring of metal. The bearing rollers must have become the twisted shards that were spit into the pan by the sun and planet as they sacrificed themselves to get me home.

There were no other worn parts in the tranny, other than some light scratches inside the shell, but a pro told me it should be fine if I polish them off with emery cloth and test the seals with air. So I replaced all the plastic and rubber parts as I went(o-rings, thrust washers, seals) and air tested everything as I put it back together and all the pistons and such worked great. Took apart the fluid pump, no shavings in there. Replaced torque converter. Took apart the valve body, no metal bits in there either. Verified clutch clearances and end play, all good. Flushed cooler and lines. Put it back in!

One word of advise, if you just rebuilt a tranny for the first time and it all seems like it should work but when you start it and NOTHING works, maybe you got your valve body gaskets swapped.

It's 2 weeks out now and no problems, no leaks. Wouldn't want to do it again though.

P.S.
I also needed a new snap ring for the front planetary assembly, the one that holds everything onto the output shaft but nobody could get it, not even Toyota, nor any of the places online who went as far a sending me a shipping notice before they realized they didn't have it. I finally found a ring at Arcon Ring, http://www.arconring.com/ They sent me 2 free samples and saved the day.
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