JeepForum.com

JeepForum.com (http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/)
-   Engines & Drivetrain (http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f19/)
-   -   Loud chattering noise after 318 rebuild (http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f19/loud-chattering-noise-after-318-rebuild-1560542/)

ZJJeepfan75 08-10-2013 06:55 PM

Loud chattering noise after 318 rebuild
 
New to this site and need the help of more experienced members. I recently purchased a 1995 ZJ Grand Cherokee from a friend that had forgot to put oil in the engine after he changed it. The result of course as you'd imagine was that the engine just seized up, I've seen this a couple of times before. It had 148Kmi on it when this happened so I decided to rebuild it. I'm not new to rebuilding and have done a few engine rebuilds before, however this time I am getting a very loud chattering noise upon initial startup. When I tore the engine down all of the main and rod bearings were gouged which confirmed my initial suspicions of why the engine had seized. The block, heads, pistons, and rods were all taken to a machine shop to be cleaned up and checked...everything was deemed good and new cam bearings and plugs were installed along with successful pressure testing was done. New parts consist of oil pump, main/rod bearings, piston rings, timing gear/chain/sprocket set, water pump and camshaft. I inspected the push rods and hydraulic lifters. The pushrods were true, straight and had no blockages, the lifters seemed to be fine to me although I did not tear them apart Long story short (too late right) I'm at a loss now as to what is causing the engine to make such a horrid noise, like all of the valve train is chattering at the same time. I did prime the oil pump with a priming shaft and drill while turning the crank 90 degrees several times. I got 50psi on a mechanical oil gauge and oil oozing out of push rods on the left and right side. Could it be that my hydraulic lifters are still not filled up and should I just run my engine with the noise until it stops in hopes of them filling up? I'm afraid of the damage it might cause if I do that. Has anyone else experienced this?

uberxj92 08-12-2013 08:22 AM

Valve adjustment time

vadslram 08-12-2013 12:44 PM

did you re-use the old lifters?
They could still be collapsed and running until it's warm might fix it.

I'm not real familiar with the 318 but when I bought my daughter's car I got it for a song because the POs had the timing chain redone and figured that the mechanic messed something up. It rattled when it was cold and under load also. When I tore down the front end (ok left side, transverse engine) I saw that the timing tensioner transport lock was never take off. It was a big staple looking thing that kept the plunger compressed and kept it from flying apart. It also kept the plunger from using oil pressure to ..well tension things.

ZJJeepfan75 08-13-2013 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uberxj92 (Post 15784627)
Valve adjustment time

I thought so too but there is no adjustment for hydraulic lifters, the book states that when #6 is at TDC to torque all the rocker arm bolts down and its good. Most I've read from searching online is using the chart below, tighten the respective intake and exhaust rockers until the pushrod can't spin with your fingers anymore (called pre-loading). Well I've tightened the first one to the point that I'm getting scared that the bolt is about to shear and the intake push rod can still be turned. So I'm at a loss.

Position Intake Exhaust
TDC #1 firing set #2 #8
Rotate 90 degree set #1 #4
Rotate 90 degree more, set #8 #3
Rotate 90 degree more, set #4 #6
Rotate 90 degree more, set #3 #5
Rotate 90 degree more, set #6 #7
Rotate 90 degree more, set #5 #2
Rotate 90 degree more, set #7 #1


Quote:

Originally Posted by vadslram (Post 15785642)
did you re-use the old lifters?
They could still be collapsed and running until it's warm might fix it.

I'm not real familiar with the 318 but when I bought my daughter's car I got it for a song because the POs had the timing chain redone and figured that the mechanic messed something up. It rattled when it was cold and under load also. When I tore down the front end (ok left side, transverse engine) I saw that the timing tensioner transport lock was never take off. It was a big staple looking thing that kept the plunger compressed and kept it from flying apart. It also kept the plunger from using oil pressure to ..well tension things.

The 318 doesn't have a tensioner on the timing set, it's your normal crank gear/cam gear connected with a chain. Most I've heard online besides the adjustment chart above is something called pre-load. I made sure to prime the oil really good, but am very hesitant on letting it run much longer than a couple seconds to perhaps get oil to any place that it hasn't gotten yet because of the excessive noise, I mean it's pretty bad.

vadslram 08-13-2013 04:43 AM

every hydraulic lifter I've ever played with had a preload but the rest was done by oil pressure. If you have the rocker seated all the way down and you still have rod spin then you either have a short rod or the lifter is collapsed. Since you reused the old rods and didn't put in some 1/4 inch head gasket then you are looking at a bad lifter or 6. bad news as far as work wise but it won't kill the engine and it isn't real bad as for price.
I usually pre fill and check the lifters with a fancy home brew tool and a small tin can of oil. I took an old pushrod and put a wooden ball on top so I could push down hard. I then put the lifter in the can of clean oil and push down on the lifter piston a couple of times. It cycles oil through so that it doesn't start dry and you can tell if there is no movement in the piston then the lifter is collapsed.

ZJJeepfan75 08-14-2013 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadslram (Post 15788219)
every hydraulic lifter I've ever played with had a preload but the rest was done by oil pressure. If you have the rocker seated all the way down and you still have rod spin then you either have a short rod or the lifter is collapsed. Since you reused the old rods and didn't put in some 1/4 inch head gasket then you are looking at a bad lifter or 6. bad news as far as work wise but it won't kill the engine and it isn't real bad as for price.
I usually pre fill and check the lifters with a fancy home brew tool and a small tin can of oil. I took an old pushrod and put a wooden ball on top so I could push down hard. I then put the lifter in the can of clean oil and push down on the lifter piston a couple of times. It cycles oil through so that it doesn't start dry and you can tell if there is no movement in the piston then the lifter is collapsed.

Looks like I'll have to tear off the intake again, not too much work but a few hours. What you said makes sense though, I'll have to check to see if I have collapsed lifters. If so will run about 280 for all 16, still not too pricey. Thanks for the advice, when I find out something I'll repost the results.

ZJJeepfan75 08-19-2013 07:32 PM

***UPDATE***
So after removing all of the lifters I tried pushing down on them and none of them budged at all. I took them all apart and besides the snap ring and piston nothing else moved. Compared to a new one when the snap ring was removed the piston wants push out due to the spring and has a half an inch of spring compression when pushed in. I figured that all of the lifters were seized in the full up position and needed replaced. I submerged 16 new lifters in oil while compressing them and then let them soak for a while. I actually saw air bubbles come out of the filler hole while compressing them validating that oil got into them. Then installed each new lifter and inspected the pushrods, and rocker arms and everything checked out just fine. I did not feel the need to prime the oil pump again as I have already done this and oil is already sitting at the lifter channel ready to lube the top end. So after starting the engine up I'm getting 20 PSI on the mechanical oil press gauge but I am still getting the atrocious chattering noise. There should be no adjustment to make on the valves, I mean the book says to put the #6 piston at TDC and torque all the rocker arm bolts down as this is a neutral part in the engine rotation. I went a step further and used the chart above to make sure the lifters were on the heel of the cam. I’m now really at a loss as to how to fix this. I’m taking any and all inputs please.

vadslram 08-20-2013 04:36 AM

If your lifters were solid and you torqued down everything tight....did you roll the pushrods before you put them back in? are they all straight?

We've all been focusing on the top end, did you use a stethescope and track down the sound to be sure it was valve related?

ZJJeepfan75 08-20-2013 12:55 PM

Yeah all the pushrods are true and straight I double checked that. I also re-lubed the cam, pushrods and rockers with more pre-lube before putting everything back together. There would be no use for me to use a stethoscope; the noise is too loud for that, It really has me worried because of how loud it is but when I replaced the lifters I saw no damage in the top end at least that I can see. When I spin the engine with the starter and no spark plugs it sounds normal. As soon as it fires off that when the sound starts.

vadslram 08-20-2013 01:19 PM

A stethescope would still work. If it isn't loud enough to tell by feel.
It would be nice to know if it was a bolt backed out if the TC on the flexplate, something in the oil pan hitting the crank or like I had a bolt missing and three loose on the pulley attached to the vibration damper.
Without some idea of where it is coming from you can't stop it.

ZJJeepfan75 08-20-2013 02:15 PM

Well I accounted for all hardware when I reassembled the engine, checked the clearances of the oil pan. I torqued all the bolts on the TC and used threadlock as well. All the dampener bolts are in and tight. When I say the noise is loud I mean it is loud I wish I could upload a sound clip of it on here, but all that is allowed are pictures. It is scary loud, but only after it lights off, not when just cranking the starter over. I've tried just the starter turning the motor with the fuel pump relay and plug wires disconnected and it sounds like a normal cranking.

vadslram 08-20-2013 03:38 PM

Well if that's the case it sounds definitely bearing related. Not what you want to hear but..
pull the oil pan and check each con rod. Maybe you forgot one bearing (not likely) or something equally as bad.

ZJJeepfan75 08-20-2013 04:01 PM

Actually I ran into some issues with the connecting rod bearings as well as the connecting rods. After the getting them back from the machine shop I didn't realize that they weren't matched up and all of the caps and rods were mixed up. The book stated that the crank should take no more than 15 ft lbs to rotate when everything is assembled. It was way difficult to turn until after torquing down just a couple caps. I then realized the matching stamps were all mixed up on the caps and rods. Well after double and triple checking them all it was around 10 ft lbs to rotate the crank and all the bearings were installed correctly as well as very well pre-lubed and i felt very confident about the assembly. This was definitely no rush job I took my time when putting everything back together and with my background being aircraft maintenance I made sure to check everything over and over again. I'm just baffled as to what is making this horrid noise. I've got some replies from others that say I should just let the engine run for a bit because maybe the lifters aren't all the way filled up yet and that letting it run will get the lifters filled. Well considering I've got 20 psi on the oil gauge I'm confident that oil is lubing the engine, but I'm just scared that running it any longer than 2-3 seconds after it starts will severely damage the engine. At this point I'm willing to try that but I'm still hesitant.

uberxj92 08-20-2013 11:02 PM

You can use your smart phone and video the engine running for 30 or so seconds. Then load it to YouTube and link it here. Then maybe it will help a little. Don't forget to rev it at least a little like maybe 1500 rpm

ZJJeepfan75 08-20-2013 11:06 PM

Good Idea, I'll be right back...


The time now is 11:47 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.