[CB3]

I am using an approx mix of 40% gasoline (E10 mid-grade) with 60% E85 and love it. I put in 6 to 7 gallons of mid-grade E10 gas and then fill up the rest of the tank with E85. I've been doing this for 6 months now. I love it. Some claim E82 makes more power (those who use it often think so), while others claim it makes less power (typically those who have never tried it).

I pretty clearly have slightly more power with my mixture as shown by the fact that I can go faster up 7% mountain freeway grades with my mixture without having to floor it. With all gas, I can't go as fast, even though floored. So I've found the mix to work great for about 6 months now.

I have a friend who is certified in E85 conversions. He told me I'd need to convert to run a full tank of E85, but do not need to convert to run a 40/60 mixture. In addition to being certified in E85 conversions, he is also a certified mechanic and owns a local 4x4 shop specializing in Cherokees and Wranglers.

I find my gas and E85 mix is great without any conversion needed. Also, I can fill up my tank for $17 less than I could with all gas.

If anyone wants to try this, I suggest using a full synthetic oil to compensate for the fact that ethanol is less slippery (less lubrication for upper cylinder and valve areas). Use whatever brand of synthetic oil is your preference.

My favorite full/100% synthetic motor oil is Mobil One 5/40 for any model-year of 4L engine. My second favorite oil is Chevron Delo 5/40 for model-years 03 and older of 4L engine, or Chevron Supreme 5/40 for 04 and newer 4L engines.

Mobil One has a medium level of Z & P lube additive(s) that works ideally for all model years of 4L engines, and the best base oil (IMO).

With regard to Chevron full/100% synthetic oils: There is a difference in amount of additives between Delo (higher Z & P additives for older model year engines) and Supreme (lower Z & P additives for newer model year engines) that makes each most appropriate for specific model years (catalytic converters differ by year). Both Chevron oils have great base oil.

A full synthetic motor oil is best for lubrication when using E85 (or E85 mixed with gas), but only if your engine has low enough mileage to switch to a full synthetic.

If your engine has to many miles to switch to a full synthetic, then use a good synthetic blend and that should work dandy for a mixture of 40% gas, 60% E85. This is what my cousin does in his 98 XJ. It had 120K miles on it when he bought it. So he didn't think (and I didn't think) that a full/100% synthetic motor oil was a good idea. So he went with a top quality synthetic blend. Specifically he uses Chevron Supreme 10/40 with ISOSYN (ISOSYN means it's a conventional oil so highly refined as to be a synthetic blend or equivalent). The Chevron Supreme is very good stuff and for a good price too. If you have a higher mileage engine (and therefore to late to switch to a full/100% synthetic), then use any brand of quality synthetic blend that you prefer. My cousin and I prefer Chevron Supreme because it's excellent quality and price, but use whatever brand you prefer.

My E85 certified friend said to NOT use E85 (or mixture) in vehicles older than 96 due to fuel system compatibility issues. My LJ is an 06, so I'm good to mix. My cousin's XJ is a 98, so he's good to mix it, and he is mixing 40/60 and loves it. It might be OK to mix in a 95 4L engine, but we aren't sure. It's OK for 96 and later. If you have a 94 or older, then don't do it.

P.S. - I have heard some express concerns about possible fuel system rust when running E85 in unconverted vehicles. My E85 conversion certified friend who is also a certified mechanic and owns a Jeep customization shop locally says that is not a concern for 96 and newer engines of any car maker (whether converted for full E85 or not). My personal opinion is that it's fine for 96 and later engines (of any car maker) for running the 40/60 mixture I'm running. I personally don't have an opinion regarding running straight E85 because I don't do that. I like the 40/60 mixture in my 06 4L. It works great for me with no conversions needed. I also tried this in my parents mid-90s Oldmobile and it works great in that too (maybe even better in that car since that car is an oil burner).

[CB3]

Also, when I get my oil changed at 4000 miles (after mostly city driving), the oil still looks almost as clean as new. Why? Because E85 burns cleaner, thus leaving engine oil, engine bottom end, and top end cleaner. The spark plugs and valves are cleaner too.

My used motor oil never looked that clean when I was running gasoline.

So I think it's good for my engine and my wallet, slightly good for my power, and arguably good for the environment. Also, I love not buying the oil companies fuel. At least not as much of it. It's also nice to send some of my fuel money to the USA farmers and less to Arab nations that support terrorism.

The fuel mix works great for 96 and later Jeeps of any engine model. My motor oil advice was for 4L engines specifically with regard to viscosity. However, the rest of my oil advice applies to newer Jeeps also (just use an appropriate viscosity for your model of engine).

P.S. - My E85 certified friend is running the 40/60 mixture in his 07 Wrangler with no E85 conversion. In his wife's 07 Wrangler they run full E85 (no mixing it with gas) with the E85 conversion installed (parts from NAPA). Personally, I'm only interested in running the mixture without installing a conversion.

Try it, if your Jeep is 96 or newer. I love it.

[Unlimited04]

since you've been running E-85 for 6 months, I'm going to guess you've successfully trashed your spark plugs and probably burned your pistons and valves.

Read here: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/changed-sparkplugs-old-ones-green-672816/?highlight=lean+E-85

Specifically this part:

Originally Posted by Unlimited04

you can NOT run E-85 in your TJ. you can run nothing higher than E-15 (which is normal gasoline these days). This is because your engine and computer are NOT designed to run on ethanol concentrations higher than 15%. Flex-fuel vehicles have special computers that adjust fuel, timing and spark, they also have fuel components that are not damaged by the corrosive conditions of high ethanol concentrations.

The green nickel oxide deposits suggests your combustion is running too hot. While ethanol burns cooler than gasoline, because it is a less efficient fuel and the stoichiometric ratio is different, your engine's computer will NOT provide the correct amount of fuel when the ethanol concentration is too high. This will leave you running lean, and therefore very hot.

If you want to destroy your TJ's engine, E-85 will do it successfully unless you modify the computer timing, fuel and spark conditions with a piggyback system.

Sources
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2006-01-3380
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_standard_engines

[CB3]

All seems to be working very well. Runs great. I'm sticking with it. My friend who's certified in E85 conversions has been running his unconverted 07 Wrangler with same 40/60 mixture for a year and all is well with his. His wife's 07 Wrangler has a conversion kit installed and has been running it on full E85 for a year.

My cousin is running his unconverted 98 XJ with same 40/60 mixture and so far so good for him.

All with no problems.

The people I've personally talked to IRL who are doing this all report good results (and two of them are certified mechanics). The people I've talked to IRL who speak against it are all, unanimously, people who have never tried it (and one of those is a certified mechanic). I think that oil company propaganda is behind the sources of fear.

I'm going to stick with it. What will you say if I'm still loving it after a year with no problems? After 2 years? After 3, 4, 5, 6 years? I'll give an update once a year.

I know you are an engineer, a smart guy, and you have good intentions. I appreciate you for your good qualities, but I think your sources are influenced by oil companies with ulterior motives, not by reality. So far it's working great for me.

In any case, we are going to find out once and for all with my 2006 LJ Rubi. Just to check on your concerns, I'll have a spark plug pulled and examined by my local certified mechanic. However, I expect it'll be fine because it runs as good as always, except with a bit more power on hills. Even so, I'll have my plugs checked and report back.

[CB3]

FYI - two of my local certified mechanics thinks it's fine, while one warns against it. The manager of the local NAPA store thinks it's fine and he's running a 40/60 mix in his personal Toyota pickup and has been doing so for over a year with no problems (with no conversion). On the NAPA parts delivery vehicles locally they run full on E85 (with no mixing), but that's with the NAPA E85 conversion kit installed.

I know of numerous credible sources that say it's OK to mix without a conversion or to run straight E85 with a conversion kit. Some even say E85 is beneficial (cleaner engine). I also know of numerous credible sources that say it's not OK.

We can/could post links all day to various sources that say for and against. It wouldn't prove anything, IMO, because the sources, facts, and urban legands are so numerous and mixed and contradictory.

So at some point, a guy just has to jump in and find out for himself. I'm 6 months into testing that and so far it's great.

However, I will get a plug tested to check on your "running hot warnings", and then I'll report back. My temp gauge indicates not running hot at all. If anything, a bit cool most of time. I'll check a plug anyway and maybe take a picture of it and post it too.

[CB3]

Another thing, if my fuel mileage has reduced at all on the mixture, it's not enough to notice.

[dirthound]

Very interesting stuff.

The more power the better with that 4.0L.


The bad thing about ethanol fuel is that it takes more energy to produce it than it saves. (i.e it uses 100 units to be manufactured and is only more efficient by, say, 10 units.) I don't remember the exact numbers offhand, but that gets the point across). And thats a true story.

However, ethanol is a bit more pure energy than gasoline. This is a very interesting post...Anybody with a chem degree care to expand on ethanol vs. gasoline?

[Unlimited04]

Originally Posted by CB3

I'm going to stick with it. What will you say if I'm still loving it after a year with no problems? After 2 years? After 3, 4, 5, 6 years? I know you are an engineer and mean well, but I think your sources are influenced by oil companies, not by reality. Brazil has been doing this for 10 to 15 years now and they love it. It works for them, and for those I know who are doing it. So far it's working great for me.

I'll say good luck, especially after you pull a plug out that looks like this:



How are my sources influenced by oil companies? Oil companies make E-85!! Brazil has been using ethanol successfully for many years because their vehicles are DESIGNED to run ethanol. The computers are different, the timing and spark plugs are different - all done at the manufacturing side before a car is ever shipped there. I'm not arguing that E-85 is a viable fuel at all, it is - when properly implemented.

Think about it - your TJ's computer is very stupid. It can NOT and will NOT compensate for fuel requirements associated with forced induction, exhausts, displacement changes, or even camshaft changes. Ethanol has a completely different fuel and timing requirement than gasoline, its a different stoichiometric ratio. You're TJ's computer is programmed for a 14.7:1 A/F gasoline ratio, ethanol requires 9.5:1 A/F ratio. This means you need to add more fuel to get the same combustion - in gasoline terms 9.5:1 is quite rich, but in E-85 terms 9.5:1 is stoichiometricly correct, 5:1 would be quite rich in E-85 terms.

E-85 is 105 octane so timing needs to be advanced. E-85 also requires more volume of fuel to get the correct 9.5:1 A/F ratio. Because the TJ's computer is a speed density system, it only does what its programmed, it does NOT have the ability to adjust its timing or fuel maps. Even tho E-85 has higher fuel requirements than gasoline, the TJ's computer is stupid - it doesn't know you've added E-85, just like it doesn't know when you add a turbo, supercharger, cam, exhaust or bored throttle body. It will still feed fuel based on the gasoline 14.7:1 A/F ratio - meaning you're now running extremely lean for E-85. This extremely lean condition makes the combustion run very hot - but you won't see detonation because of E-85 is 105 octane, and your timing is now retarded. Instead you will burn the your pistons, valves and spark plugs. The picture above is proof of this - a 2006 TJ running mixed tanks of E-85/gas for long periods of time - caused a nickel oxide coating due to the excessive lean condition.

To CORRECTLY burn E-85, you need a piggyback computer system to adjust the fuel and timing maps to the correct 9.5:1 A/F ratio.

Then you ask, well how come I don't see a problem - well lucky for you the TJ's computer is so stupid the stock A/F ratio is all over the freakin place, sometimes its very rich, sometimes its very lean. While the rich side of things isn't too bad with E-85, the lean condition is very bad for your engine. Whenever TJ's are in closed loop (less than about 75-80% throttle and below ~3000rpm) they run lean, when in open loop (Wide Open Throttle & over ~ 3300rpms), they run rich. Basically you only enter open loop at cold start up and full throttle at high rpms - like when you downshift and floor it to accelerate as quickly as possible for highway merges.

[spyder6]

claiming that you're getting more power out of E85 is a load of crap, its not possible unless you're running a motor that is setup for it, or your motor is running improperly. its simple chemistry

[Unlimited04]

CB3, two things you said confirm you're running very lean
1. slight power increase - rhe combustion is running much hotter, and when the computer is telling the engine to run rich (for gasoline) you're actually very lean (for E-85), this lean condition burns all the fuel present. Unfortunately E-85 is less efficient than gasoline, so you're actually making less power if you put it on a dyno.

2. Gas mileage hasn't changed - no kidding it hasn't, because your TJ's computer doesn't know you're running E-85, so its still supplying the same amount of fuel it would for gasoline. This means you're running extremely lean due to the difference in A/F ratio requirements. Again, put your jeep on a dyno, your A/F ratio is ****ed.

EDIT: Don't believe me? How about a GM Powertrain engineer?

While the stoichiometric (chemically ideal) air/fuel mixture ratio for gasoline is approximately 14.7:1, with ethanol it is around 9.79:1... Josh Ksiazkiewsicz is a GM Powertrain engineer and one of GM Performance Division's resident E85 gurus. A recent graduate of Kettering University, he is currently writing a rather thick master's thesis on ethanol fuels.... He says, "If you compare gasoline and E85, they have roughly a 20 to 25 percent differential in energy density by mass. We can't change that. What we can do is compensate for it by delivering more fuel mass to make up the difference."

from: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_0801_e85_ethanol_alternative_fuel/air_fuel_mixture_ratio.html

[CB3]

Originally Posted by dirthound

...The bad thing about ethanol fuel is that it takes more energy to produce it than it saves. (i.e it uses 100 units to be manufactured and is only more efficient by, say, 10 units.) I don't remember the exact numbers offhand, but that gets the point across). And thats a true story.

However, ethanol is a bit more pure energy than gasoline. This is a very interesting post...Anybody with a chem degree care to expand on ethanol vs. gasoline?

Here is the thing... The Brazilians have been running ethanol for 15 or 20 years now and they think it's great, and they cut their dependence on foreign oil by 85%.

So think about that, and then answer this... If making ethanol is not energy efficient, how come the Brazilians do it and have been for 15 or 20 years now? They run their cars on it and it works great for them.

I think the real answer is politics. The American oil companies are wholely corrupt and they unduly influence USA politics by their lobbyests. For example, in Oregon it's illegal for an electric car to drive faster than 25 mph. In WA it's illegal for an electric car to drive faster than 35 mph. Why? Because oil company lobbyists got those laws passed to prevent widespread use of electric cars. Now there are some loopholes that an electric car manufacturer can go through to get around those speed restrictions, but to do so they must go through extensive extra red tape and testing.

If you ask the typical USA engineer (especially an auto engineer, but also mechanical engineer, chemist, etc) if electric cars or ethanol are feasible, they'll typically say "no" and then give a bunch of techno-babble as to why. Most of them really believe it's impossible because that is what they were taught by senior engineers in school and on the job. However, if you ask a Brazilian engineer about ethanol, they'll tell you it's feasible, why, and explain how they've been doing it for 20 years.

If you ask a Chinese or Japanese engineer if electric cars are feasible, they'll say "yes" and explain how and why. Japan is currently in the process of putting in electric car charging stations (fueling stations, in effect) all over Japan spaced within range of the electric cars they are producing. Soon Japan will be using all electric cars.

So Brazil is already mostly oil independent. Japan will be soon. Both of those nations engineers know it's possible and are doing it. Meanwhile, USA engineers still claim it can't be done, despite the fact that their competitors in other nations are doing it.

I'm sure that USA engineers and chemists (most of them) really believe fossil fuels are best. Especially our auto engineers. That's because the oil companies own stock in the car companies and vice versa. Those companies and their engineers have a vested interest in NOT succeeding at finding alternative fuels and making alternative fuel vehicles work. It's in their financial best interests to claim it's not possible and to try to convince their peers, politicians, and the public that oil/gasoline is best.

The oil and auto industries in the USA employ huge numbers of engineers, chemists, and so on, who are paid to claim it can't be done and to teach new/young engineers and chemists that it can't be done. Most especially auto engineers who publish all sorts of bunk claiming it can't be done to convince each other, politicians, and the rest of us. So who then teaches those topics related to energy in general, and automobile engineering (including mechanical, electrical, chemical engineering), in USA universities? The very same guys who got their real world job experience working for the establishment in the USA. The establishment here is heavily influenced by the oil companies to believe it can't be done.

Baloney. Oil independence can be done and is being done in other nations. Most notably other nations that do not have large oil deposits and do not have large oil companies influencing their politics and auto industries. It is no coincidence that Brazil and Japan do not have a lot of oil, nor large oil companies, and so they are finding alternatives and making them work successfully.

Meanwhile, the USA has large domestic oil deposits and large oil companies that own those domestic deposits and own interests in foreign oil too. The USA oil companies and auto companies own each other's stock and collude to make gas guzzlers and not make energy efficient cars, and moreso they intentionally fail to make alternative energy vehicles work. That is why our auto makers continue to claim that ethanol and electric cars are not practical, even while other nations engineers are proving those alternative energy sources are practical for cars.

I'm going to continue using my 40/60 mix until I either burn up my engine and prove the naysayers correct, or prove that it doesn't hurt my engine. So far it's been 6 months and it's still running dandy. My friend has been doing this for a year and his Jeep still runs dandy. What if my Jeep still runs great after a year? Will naysayers then agree that it works? How about 2 years? 3 years? 4 years? How many years does it have to work good in my Jeep with no damage before we can finally agree it works?

I do agree that it would not work to run 100% E85 without a conversion. A guy would have to install a convertion to run full E85 (conversion kit sold at NAPA auto for $150). However, my 40%/60% E10/E85 mix has been doing well for 6 months from summer through winter. So far so good.

I will get my plugs checked and a compression test because one of you suggested it. Can't hurt to check. It's running smooth and strong. Will check anyway though.

[CB3]

I will add that I'm running Mobil 5/40 synthetic, which I think is awesome for a 4L due to great base oil and Z & P additives. Not sure if that might partly explain why my engine is doing well. It runs good. Will check a plug and compression anyhow and take a pic of the plug.

[spyder6]

we're not saying the use of ethanol is wrong, in engines built for the sole use of ethanol you can accomplish power numbers that is impossible for gasoline just out of the fact of its natural octane rating.

what we are saying is that your motor is not made for it, neither is your computer and soon you'll be agreeing with us when your motor seizes because of melted parts. if you had a EGT sensor you could see what we're talking about. also (i read this in a popular mechanics), the south americans use sugarcane based ethanol that with its higher sugar content delivers more combustibility when its distilled vs corn based (correct me if im wrong)

and the whole E85 conversion thing costs way more than $150, this is what you need.
-Alcohol rated fuel pump
-alcohol rated fuel lines
-Alcohol rated fuel tank
-E85 capible computer
-a knock sensor
-nickel plated combustion chamber for corrosion resistance

[tarbendar]

Spyder6 is right.

Also for the uninitiated. The mass introducction of E85 in the US hasn't happened yet for a few small, but significant reasons.

The infrastructure to support a mass rollout of it is years away from even being envisioned to be in place. 85% of the current gasoline stations in the US do not have the capability to store or sell E85. Older tanks can not handle the corrosive aspect of E85. Also many fittings, gaskets, and piping are incompatible with E85 based on the ability of alcohol to eat the metal, rubber or cork away. The lines, fittings and possibly the dispensers must be able to handle the high alcohol content of this fuel, right now the older sites can't. And in a real world concept, its just not economically possible to pay to switch out all of this equipment in a short term. Maybe in 10 to 15 years the whole country can be switched over, but not in 2 or 3.

Keep this in mind before you label this all collusion based off of some fallacy the media has fed you. Most gas stations are owned by either a small company or a mom and pop operation. The cost alone to change one tank out to a newer compatible one is almost a half million dollars. Just to change the tank. A new compatible gas dispenser is in the neighborhood of 10 grand for one unit. Where are they supposed to get this kind of money right now? Santa Claus?

I'll never say E-85 is bad for vehicles or the environment, because its proven that it is more efficient and cleaner burning. But I will say for the uninformed to just shoot their mouth off without quoting valid sources is laughable.

And as a slight jab, SAE mechanic doesn't mean they know everything about the product, just means they took some test to prove they can read a book.

I am trained and certified by the individual manufacturers to install and service Gilbarco gasoline equipment, Xerxes underground storage tanks, Ameron piping systems, Red Jacket Submersible Pumps, and Veeder Root Environmental monitoring systems. All of which are in every gas station you fill your car up at anywhere in the world.

Thanks for reading

American Coalition For Ethanol
Converting older UST's to E85 compatible UST's

[Unlimited04]

E85 is a viable vehicle fuel - WHEN PROPERLY IMPLEMENTED.

To properly convert your 4.0L to E85 you need to make sure you've got the following items:

Originally Posted by spyder6

-Alcohol rated fuel pump
-alcohol rated fuel lines
-Alcohol rated fuel tank
-E85 capable computer
-a knock sensor
-nickel plated combustion chamber for corrosion resistance

FlexFuel vehicles have a specific computer with sensors that allows them to detect the difference between 87 octane and 105 octane E85. This computer adjusts the fuel delivery to accommodate the different stoichiometric ratios described above - this keeps the engine from running lean. The 4.0L does NOT have a knock sensor, nor does the stock computer have the ability to measure or adjust the stoichiometric ratio in any sort of feedback loop like an E85 computer does.