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Unread 07-10-2002, 08:48 PM   #1
JPJeep
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Cheap Supercharging..?

Hi Folks,

I know little about engines, but I enjoy learning and find the topic pretty interesting. Anyhow, I was looking around for more jeep power (I know - why? - because it is fun) and I did some reading about turbos and superchargers. Both cram cold dense air into the throttle body under pressure, but are driven by different sources (turbo is exhaust and super is belt driven).

So I got to thinkin... (dangerous I know) How about an electric fan to raise the pressure? But a few google searches and that idea died (the energy needed to make ANY boost is HUGE! ).

So where could a person get a few pounds of cold dense air to stuff into the manifold..?

Well - I have an air compressor and tank .

Yup - just like nitro without all that lowrider rice burning smell. Plus you can air back up after you come off the trails.

Now (and here's where I am not certain) why would people not want to buy a NOS kit and use the throttle body plate to dump air from their tire tank for a little boost off the line..? You could charge the tank back up while rolling.

Any replies are appreciated - I'm just fishing for ideas and information at this time, but you never know what could happen...

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Unread 07-12-2002, 01:12 PM   #2
valkyr
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It's an interesting idea, but....

Here's a scenario - it's a bit long, sorry.

Let's assume (for purposes of discussion) that your jeep pulls 320 cfm at WOT. That's how much air is in a 5x8 room (8' ceiling). In one minute, your motor would pull all the air out of that room. That is a lot of work, too. It takes energy to pump air at that rate.

So we have a hole in one wall for more air to come in. Add a filter over that hole, of course. Put the air line from a pressurized air tank right behind the filter and imagine the effect it has on the volume of air being used by the engine. Not much. Same goes for electric fans trying to push air into the system. They both have to pressurize the air going into the engine or reduce the engine's effort to 'breath' before they are effective. Ram-air tries to do the same thing for a vehicle in motion.

The S/C and T/C methods sacrifice some engine power to create atmospheric pressures a few pounds above ambient. This means the motor has to work less to get air in. In addition, each cubic foot of air has the molecules crunched closer together, which means more oxygen. Since pressurizing gas makes it hot, you'll need a cooler to avoid destroying expensive components.

NOS systems approach it from another angle. Instead of pressurizing, it cools the intake air. Cooling makes the molecules in a cubic foot of air get closer together, which means more oxygen. Propane does the same thing, in addition to supplying some BTUs.

When you combine these various options, you're really making HP.

All the complex solutions are regulated to keep the engine from destroying itself. And that costs money.

Again, sorry for the long reply, but you didn't get any other responses, so I'm making up for them.

Joe.
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Unread 07-12-2002, 01:49 PM   #3
JPJeep
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Please don't apologize - that is EXACTLY what I was looking for!

Now if I understand correctly - NOS cools the air because it is expanding from a liquid to a gas when it hits the manifold.

Since I have a basic air compressor/tank I can't offer enough pressure during decompression to 1) increase the air pressure significantly and/or 2) drop the temperature in the manifold.

So if I wanted to carry 'liquid' air around I could probably do the same as NOS thing, but liquid air would be our highly unstable friend liquid oxygen. Bad idea.

Oh well - back to ducting cold air in and saving up for the jethot headers...

I have never heard of using propane instead of NOS outside of making super cool flamethrower exhausts - is it a similar application?

Thanks very much for the info Joe!

PLEASE be long winded - I can take it!


Jim
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Unread 07-13-2002, 09:31 AM   #4
jeepcherokeev6
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well, this thread has turned into a highly informative physics discussion!

if you want to go with a turbo (maybe in the future) heres a site that apparently makes turbo manafolds. <a href="http://www.turbomanafolds.com" target="_blank">www.turbomanafolds.com</a>

you can get a manafold for your car, mount the turbo and......

perhaps valkyr can fill in the rest, as i have no experience turbocharging.
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Unread 07-13-2002, 08:33 PM   #5
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jeepcherokeev6:
<strong>

if you want to go with a turbo (maybe in the future) heres a site that apparently makes turbo manafolds. <a href="http://www.turbomanafolds.com" target="_blank">www.turbomanafolds.com</a> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that link doesnt work, might wanna try turbomanIfolds.com
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Unread 07-13-2002, 10:39 PM   #6
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GM is toying with a cheapie supercharger that looks surprisingly like the smog pump on my AMC V-8. It would sure have to put out A LOT more air than my smog pump to do much of anything though!
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Unread 07-15-2002, 09:04 AM   #7
valkyr
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JPJeep

Some good ideas being tossed around. (Discussion invites us to re-examine the assumptions that form the basis for old thinking. And that's where surprises can come from.) There's smarter people than me who can calculate actual HP gains from all the different methods.

OldJeepguy, BuMpyj, jeepcherokeev6
Thanks for the links to informative sites.

Propane injection is often seen on turbo-diesel trucks. Here's a site that sells Powershot system. http://www.wjsperformance.com/
I've also read about some racers using it in cars. It seems to be harder to meter than NOx. I haven't seen it in action personally.

I forgot to mention water injection. Another way to cool things down.

The goal is to make the combustion process as efficient (and responsive in mutiple RPM ranges) as possible:
1) reduce the work for pulling air in and pushing gases out
2) maximize oxygen intake by pressurization and/or cooling
3) supply sufficient fuel to match oxygen content (14.7 to 1 ratio)
4) optimize the timing of the explosion (for the type of fuel)

We want all this at low cost, drivable for at least 100k miles and without destroying the motor. The modern computerized motors do a pretty good job at this. (Are there any new production vehicles where you set the timing by turning the distributor? just wondering - I don't know).

Your initial suggestion (of using pressurized air from a tank) has some merit - because it is factor of #1 above. It may also contribute a little to #2. Now if someone could calculate approximate gains...........? It is cheap. You already have the tank. Hooking it up isn't hard or dangerous. It won't be hard to control and it won't hurt anything if you're timing is a little off. Let me know how the experiment works. Oh - I'm assuming you're not going to blow all the tank pressure into the intake in 2 seconds.

See ya,
Joe

Last edited by valkyr; 07-15-2002 at 10:12 AM..
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Unread 07-17-2002, 01:27 AM   #8
91XJLimited
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I know that this is a bit late, but actually, NOS doesn't cool the intake air. What NOS does, is make the fuel going into the engine, tiny droplets, instead of bigger ones. It doesn't take a genius to know that tiny burns faster than big. Faster burn = more HP.
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Unread 07-17-2002, 01:28 AM   #9
91XJLimited
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Sorry, forgot to say something. That is why you can run NOS and a tc/sc at the same time. Tc/sc deals with air, NOS deals with fuel. A combined effort = major horsepower.
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Unread 07-17-2002, 10:01 AM   #10
JPJeep
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Thanks folks!

After the forum change I lost track - I will post when I get the guts to try the experiment!

Jim
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Unread 07-18-2002, 08:18 AM   #11
valkyr
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Quote:
Originally posted by 91XJLimited
I know that this is a bit late, but actually, NOS doesn't cool the intake air. What NOS does, is make the fuel going into the engine, tiny droplets, instead of bigger ones. It doesn't take a genius to know that tiny burns faster than big. Faster burn = more HP.
91XJLimited,
Thanks for correcting me. Made me go back and look up why things happen the way they do. Here's another interesing write-up on Nitrous injection.
http://www.idavette.net/hib/nitrous.htm

and this is another very simple explanation
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question259.htm

And now back to the original topic....will this simple electric device work? Can it accomplish what the more costly solutions deliver?

Have a good day,
Joe V.

Last edited by valkyr; 07-18-2002 at 08:31 AM..
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Unread 07-18-2002, 08:50 AM   #12
JPJeep
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Oh well - no fame for me

Hello again,

It seems that the idea was already out there:
Half-Bakery

and industry has already toyed with it:
Check out the top truck caption

I guess I'll keep saving my pennies for a supercharger.

Thanks everyone for your input!!!

Jim

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Unread 07-18-2002, 05:38 PM   #13
jamesrob
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http://www.electricsupercharger.com/...percharger.com

This is a link to what is called eram supercharger. They claim a 1psi of boost from any rpm at wot. 300 bucks for 5 - 15 hp. Id like to see it perform before i'd drop any cas on it though.
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Unread 07-19-2002, 08:00 AM   #14
JPJeep
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You know it!

I read a review where some guy was merciless looking at
the physics of this thing. Some ridiculous number of amps was required to make 1psi boost.

But if it makes someone happy...



Jim
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Unread 07-19-2002, 02:13 PM   #15
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The thing is Nitrous Oxide does have a cooling effect. Compressing any gas heats it up. It's kinda like a magnifying glass. A cubic foot of air at a certain temperature and pressure has an exact amount of heat, if you squeeze that cubic foot of air into a cubic inch it still has that same amount of heat but it's more concentrated. And the opposite is true, decompressing any gas cools it. A typical N2O bottle has between 950 and 1150 PSI so releasing it into your intake tract at 0 PSI makes it pretty cold. The reason it works so well with s/c-t/c is that it counteracts the heating effects of the compressor much like an intercooler. The general rule is for every 1 PSI increase in intake pressure equals 6.5% more HP. That is assuming your air/fuel ratio and a horde of other factors remain constant.
I just fabricated a turbo kit for my TJ and am now addressing the fuel delivery issue. I like the "permanence" of a turbo. My N2O bottles were always needing to be re-filled.
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