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Unread 12-12-2013, 05:37 PM   #46
mschi772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XJmaine97 View Post
If the HID kit is legit at $200 then I'll only be able to unload my H4 upgrade on someone cynical like me.
Nah, no matter how good an HID setup is, it still has a disadvantage or two compared to quality halogen, so someone need not be a cynic to still want halogen. I'm sticking with halogen primarily because HID still has uncomfortably low CRI (color rendering index). Ignoring the fact that LED headlight tech is still crude and super expensive, even the best LEDs have poor CRI, too.

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...dvantages.html

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Unread 12-12-2013, 05:41 PM   #47
ParkerXJ
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Originally Posted by XJmaine97 View Post

I had you in mind but I know you're watching this thread! If the HID kit is legit at $200 then I'll only be able to unload my H4 upgrade on someone cynical like me.

A Jeep day sounds good. If you'll trek to North Yarmouth we can do it indoors, even.
Aha yeah, North Yarmouth isn't that bad aha, I'd definitely be down for that
And I'd buy your h4 from you if you do the HIDs
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Unread 12-12-2013, 05:52 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ParkerXJ
Aha yeah, North Yarmouth isn't that bad aha, I'd definitely be down for that And I'd buy your h4 from you if you do the HIDs
And I'd sell them to you! I just put these in, though, so my money will go to control arms or axles or something first. I am extremely happy with my setup, though - highly recommended and still cheaper than HIDs.
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Unread 12-12-2013, 05:58 PM   #49
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The truck light housings/lights are fantastic are they are dot approved .


(iam using 7inch round truck lights and their 100x better than the old lights)
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Unread 12-12-2013, 06:10 PM   #50
mschi772
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Originally Posted by Soldier905 View Post
The truck light housings/lights are fantastic are they are dot approved .


(iam using 7inch round truck lights and their 100x better than the old lights)
It is technically illegal to put HID lights into any vehicle not originally equipped with them, so because of that, these retrofits can never be DOT approved under the current laws. Many of us are comfortable ignoring the law as long as the HIDs are being projected by HID projectors since that's more in line with the spirit of the law. The true hazard is HID in halogen reflectors/projectors, and anyone doing this SHOULD be fined and forced into compliance because that kind of setup is truly dangerous to everyone on the road.

If I'm not mistaken, many E-code halogen housings are not DOT approved and, as such, are technically illegal despite their dramatically superior design. American lighting regulations are TERRIBLE, and our bureaucrats/legislators refuse to enlighten (pun!) themselves.

If you want to be sure you're obeying the letter of the law, you're going to have to settle for DOT-spec halogen housings which likely suck fiercely.
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Unread 12-12-2013, 06:12 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by XJmaine97 View Post

And I'd sell them to you! I just put these in, though, so my money will go to control arms or axles or something first. I am extremely happy with my setup, though - highly recommended and still cheaper than HIDs.
Gotcha, well I'd probably have my own set of H4s by that time but it was worth a shot
Definitely something I'm putting on my xmas list, so possibly we can ring in the new year with new headlights
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Unread 12-12-2013, 06:17 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772
It is technically illegal to put HID lights into any vehicle not originally equipped with them, so because of that, these retrofits can never be DOT approved under the current laws. Many of us are comfortable ignoring the law as long as the HIDs are being projected by HID projectors since that's more in line with the spirit of the law. If I'm not mistaken, many E-code halogen housings are not DOT approved and, as such, are technically illegal despite their dramatically superior design. American lighting regulations are TERRIBLE, and our bureaucrats/legislators refuse to enlighten (pun!) themselves. If you want to be sure you're obeying the letter of the law, you're going to have to settle for DOT-spec halogen housings which likely suck fiercely.
Yes, definitely true. I'm happy with following the spirit of the law as long as I can back it up with something better than "look how bright it is". I thought that IPF housings were DOT approved but now I'm thinking I was wrong on that. Or maybe they used to be?

Maine's laws regarding headlights state that if the headlight is not stock and produces more than 4 candlepower the beam cannot be more than 42 inches off the ground at 75 feet. Sound outdated?
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Unread 12-12-2013, 06:18 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post

It is technically illegal to put HID lights into any vehicle not originally equipped with them, so because of that, these retrofits can never be DOT approved under the current laws. Many of us are comfortable ignoring the law as long as the HIDs are being projected by HID projectors since that's more in line with the spirit of the law.

If I'm not mistaken, many E-code halogen housings are not DOT approved and, as such, are technically illegal despite their dramatically superior design. American lighting regulations are TERRIBLE, and our bureaucrats/legislators refuse to enlighten (pun!) themselves.

If you want to be sure you're obeying the letter of the law, you're going to have to settle for DOT-spec halogen housings which likely suck fiercely.
I've got a pretty good/fair mechanic and cops around here are fairly chill as long as you don't mouth off
Thank you for posting this thought, much appreciated
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Unread 12-12-2013, 06:20 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XJmaine97 View Post
Yes, definitely true. I'm happy with following the spirit of the law as long as I can back it up with something better than "look how bright it is". I thought that IPF housings were DOT approved but now I'm thinking I was wrong on that. Or maybe they used to be?

Maine's laws regarding headlights state that if the headlight is not stock and produces more than 4 candlepower the beam cannot be more than 42 inches off the ground at 75 feet.
I'm not sure of any specifics regarding E-code housings that are/aren't DOT approved at this time. I mentioned it because it was true that some were not at one time, might still be true, and should be kept in mind. Also, some companies make both American and European spec housings, so you should pay close enough attention to make sure you're getting the type you want and not the other. With E-codes, you should also make sure you're NOT getting a set for countries with left-lane driving like the UK because the lenses for them are reversed for the different traffic pattern.
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Unread 12-13-2013, 04:34 AM   #55
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To recap some of the legalities of HID kits. The manufacturing and marketing of aftermarket lighting is regulated federally. Actual road safety enforcement is up to each state. Each state has their own rules and regulations for road safety, some just follow the federal rules and guidelines for vehicle safety.

The NHTSA control manufacturing and selling of products that have to do with road and vehicle safety here in US. Have the authority to stop the manufacturing, importing and/or selling of certain types of aftermarket products.

Rules and regulations for vehicle lighting and road safety pretty much started back when there were gas & oil lanterns. Drivers unable to see, often ran into each other causing crashes. It was during these times vehicle safety was born, trying to set some national safety standards for road and vehicle safety.

When vehicle electrical lighting first started, there was not only concern about people not being able to see or blinding each other but also with the electrical hazards produced with each electrical lighting installation.

The Federal regulations today stem from those standards and pretty much are based on the same ideas today.

__ Does the lighting system potentially produce an electrical hazard to the vehicle.

__ Does the lighting system installed on the vehicle produce a hazard to other drivers while on the road.

The NHTSA tests and approves or disapproves lighting system for newly manufactured vehicles. Each car manufactures needs to have their lighting systems Federally approved before their vehicles can be produced.

Aftermarkets are a bit different as an aftermarket lighting can be installed on many different types of vehicles, models and manufactures. Usually the vehicle has already been approved for a particular type of lighting system and bulbs.

When aftermarket HID kits came onto the market the NHTSA tried testing different types of HID kits on different vehicles to determine if a HID kit could be federally approved and their test findings concluded, that there are just too many different types of vehicles & lighting systems manufactured and it would be impossible to generally approve aftermarket HID kits for use with all vehicles.
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Unread 12-13-2013, 06:18 AM   #56
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Great information. Can you link to your source(s)? Might help one of us dispute a ticket someday.
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Unread 12-13-2013, 07:31 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by XJmaine97 View Post
Great information. Can you link to your source(s)? Might help one of us dispute a ticket someday.
X2 ahaha

It definitely is great, thank you Anony for posting this for our references and a general overview of laws on the federal level
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Unread 12-13-2013, 10:26 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by XJmaine97 View Post
Great information. Can you link to your source(s)? Might help one of us dispute a ticket someday.
What I wrote is from memory of several years ago and only a general over view of how the system works.

I spent a little time researching and digging around on the NHSA website regarding the replacement of DOT approved equipment. (includes lighting equipment, from headlamps to side markers)

www.nhtsa.gov

I don't know if you can use NHTSA to argue local laws other than you can say that your equipment is DOT approved. There are other factors such how it is installed, is it really safe for the local roads, etc.

If I remember correctly I was researching about building my own taillight lenses for a home build trailer and being able to pass a state inspection. Each state e.g. varies on road and vehicle safety laws regarding home built trailers. In my state if the trailer passes inspection, it is given a vin and vehicle license. Licensing tab fees are required ea. year based on gross weight.

Federal laws concerning manufacturing and selling are essentially separate from local laws.

Only states, local communities and law enforcements have the power to enforce road safety laws, which can vary some what from state to state, county to county, city to city and town to town.

For more details I would need to go back and review what I read from several years ago.

My high bandwidth internet sat connection has been throttled down since last month, essentially becomes slower than dial-up.
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Unread 12-13-2013, 10:52 AM   #59
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No sweat, anony, don't go digging just for me. In a lot of places in Maine I think you could have decent luck arguing out of a headlight ticket if you could prove you were following the spirit of the law. If not, I'll take my ticket and consider it a cost of decent lighting.

The fact that Maine's headlight law even mentions 4 candlepower tells me the law hasn't been revisited in quite some time.
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Unread 12-13-2013, 11:06 AM   #60
anony
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No sweat, anony, don't go digging just for me. In a lot of places in Maine I think you could have decent luck arguing out of a headlight ticket if you could prove you were following the spirit of the law. If not, I'll take my ticket and consider it a cost of decent lighting.

The fact that Maine's headlight law even mentions 4 candlepower tells me the law hasn't been revisited in quite some time.
The spirit of the law is very important. Vehicle safety data is usually processed statistically, sometimes leaving out other environmental and human conditions. E.g. If an area statistically has higher accidents, measures might be taken to improve safety, through traffic enforcement, rebuilding roads, improved signage and lighting, etc. Local communities & governments usually start with traffic control and enforcement ... sometimes there are other problems that need to be addressed as accidents may be going up for other reasons.

______________

If you're in the need of long life headlamps ... H5054s (truck lights) are very similar to standard H6054s (35/65 watts) ... rated 42/65 watts and 400/2000 hours (ave. rated lab life hours).

Cherokees lighting system is based on 18 gauge wiring using 35 watt primary bulbs from the 1980s. Even though HO bulbs work when first installed ... I don't think I would upgrade conventional standard H6054s headlamps without upgrading the wiring harness. Over time additional wattage with higher voltage drops potentially stresses out a lighting system, causing premature failure, switches, relays, connectors, etc.

35 watts primary using 18 gauge wiring voltage drop is the same as 55 watt primary using 16 gauge wiring.

-----------------

I found some of my old notes from researching vehicle lighting requirements ...

HID lighting may be treated differently depending on what area your driving. It usually is up to the discretion of the local law enforcement to determine road safety e.g. broken or non working tail light, headlamp, wobbling wheel, etc.

Each state will have statutes and laws on their books to help determine how various laws, rules and regulations are viewed and treated locally, state wide and federally ..

Here is one example of how states follow federal regulations.

Are high intensity discharge (HID) conversion kits legal?

No, in order for a headlight to be legal for use in ***********, it must conform to the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) 108 requirements for headlights. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has concluded that it is impossible to produce HID conversion kits (converting a halogen system to HID) that would be compliant with FMVSS 108.

Halogen equipment uses an electrical current to heat a metal wire coil filament to incandescence, while the HID conversion kit's light source incorporates a discharge arc to produce light. HIDs require a ballast for operation. Under FMVSS 108 Section S7.7 (replacement light sources), each replaceable light source for headlamps must be designed to conform to the dimensions and electrical specifications for the headlamp source it is intended to replace. For example, if an HID kit is marketed as replacing an H1 light source, then it must match the H1's wire coil filament size and location, the electrical connector size and location, and the ballast design for use with an H1 light source (which is impossible since there is no ballast).

NHTSA believes this equipment presents a safety risk to the public since the kits can be expected to produce excessive glare to oncoming motorists. In one investigation, NHTSA found that an HID conversion headlamp exceeded the maximum candlepower by over 800 percent.

-------------------------
Other information

Some States have outlawed all aftermarket HID conversions kits based on FMVSS regulations. There may be some confusion here .. Federal regulations cover parts placed on new vehicles so they can not be sold or recalled

The symbol "DOT" on an item of equipment is sometimes misconstrued as approval by the Department of Transportation. In fact, the symbol is the manufacturer’s certification that the item complies with all applicable FMVSS, as required by 49 USC 30115.

HID conversion kits are illegal if any item in the kit does not comply with Federal requirements for vehicle lighting equipment.

FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards)
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