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Unread 10-14-2013, 12:47 PM   #46
devilsfiddle
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Yes, it seems like they are trying to please a different kind of crowd. Like families and yuppies with the power windows,locks,leather seats etc. I guess the good ole days are over.

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Unread 10-14-2013, 01:09 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade82 View Post
So your not content with trying to rewrite history, you now speak for all?
Those are the Dispatcher model and a model number of DJ-* A completely different line of vehicle and some for export, so no. I know, now you come back with "they look the same". That's because they took the look from an earlier model, the CJ-3a. It's not about looks.... or is it? (if so, then the jk must be a hummer then) Maybe I'm assuming you knew one of the basic characteristics was that it had 4 wheel drive (and not 3 doors).
Now your trying too hard. Let it go.
I think it is you that is starting to rewrite history.

The DJ-3 was originally based on the CJ-3A. There isn't a lot of differences between them (well, except 4WD).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_DJ

Also, plenty of Jeep models were available for export....

BTW, earlier you said that every other model had a "name" (but you don't want to say the name of a CJ is a CJ.)

What is the "name" of the FC? Or is the FC called the FC, but the CJ is not called a CJ (nor Universal)?

Did you know the original FC was based on the CJ-5 frame? Is it a "real" Jeep since it does not have a name?

You are trying make a narrow definiation of what "Real" means...when it clearly means something different to everyone. To some, it could mean ONLY the military versions....so no version of a CJ would count. Or to some, it could only mean the CJ-1 and CJ-2, because the CJ-3 brought about a different hood and engine and a few other changes....cool...whatever.

You are the only one trying to us what our own defintion of "Real" is.
Quote:
It simply means the vehicle line that started it all.
Says who? You? Why vehicle line? Why not original model only? What about vehicles based on the CJ (like the DJ)?

See where this is going?

And more importantly, who cares?

I don't care what your definition of a "real" Jeep is, and I certainly don't expect you to tell me what my defintion of a "real" Jeep should be.
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Unread 10-14-2013, 01:10 PM   #48
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Your right Devilsfiddle, but why can't they stand on their own. They're very capable. It's a marketing thing, not a Jeep thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjvw View Post
As I mentioned in the other Real Jeep thread, I care less about whatever AMC thought they were doing with the lineage in 1986-7. We the people have decided what a Jeep really is, not some corporate marketing team.

Which Jeep history is more meaningful - the official corporate history or the story, lifestyle and culture created by the owners over the last 70 years?
Okay then, this must be the "create your own fantasy" show. I'll stick with reality. The funny thing about the truth is, that it's an irrevocable fact. You can't just change things to suit your wishes or because you feel you don't fit in. And it's funny you speak about corporate marketing schemes when you played right into one. And you speak about lifestyle and culture of jeepers yet you want to dismiss anyone from the first 45 years (the years that made the Jeep name what it is, btw) if they don't include you or when the truth hurts. You might also note that this discussion is only an issue among the wrangler crowd and then only a portion of them. It's hardly in question among the Jeep crowd, so don't you two fool yourself.

ps. FC is a Forward Control...... CJ is a civilian JEEP!
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Unread 10-14-2013, 01:21 PM   #49
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Because they dropped the CJ moniker means that any Jeep brand vehicle going forth has no heritage nor lineage to any Jeep brand vehicle prior? I'm not a Wrangler owner either so you can't accuse me of having any delusions of any sort.
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Unread 10-14-2013, 02:03 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade82 View Post
ps. FC is a Forward Control...... CJ is a civilian JEEP!

No, no, no...in the other thread, CJ was the designation, not the name....

You can't have it both ways.

We all know what FC stands for, but "Foward Control" isn't the official name of the vehicle (not like Jeepster or Gladiator or Wagoneer)....just the series of Jeeps that are cab over/foward controls. So, no "name"... Same for the J-10/20...when in 1971 Jeep dropped the "Gladiator" name. Or is CJ the name? Or is the Universal the name?

The whole point in all that is to prove that there are other models without "names" other than their designation. Are those "Real" Jeeps since they don't have names? It does not matter what they look like since you were quick to dismiss the DJ even if the early units looked exactly like a CJ and were based on a CJ.

Or maybe only "Real" Jeeps are made by Willy's? Unless they are made by Ford or Bantam....

Man,this whole thread is pointless. Everyone can easily have their own defintion of what would constitutes "Real"....which is fine by me.
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Unread 10-14-2013, 02:19 PM   #51
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I'm not why sure why people even bother to argue over the history or definition of Jeep when the original creators said it was to be a tool that would evolve as the people needed......it is doing so, a name change or time doesn't take that away from it.
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Unread 10-14-2013, 02:50 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade82 View Post

Okay then, this must be the "create your own fantasy" show. I'll stick with reality. The funny thing about the truth is, that it's an irrevocable fact. You can't just change things to suit your wishes or because you feel you don't fit in. And it's funny you speak about corporate marketing schemes when you played right into one. And you speak about lifestyle and culture of jeepers yet you want to dismiss anyone from the first 45 years (the years that made the Jeep name what it is, btw) if they don't include you or when the truth hurts. You might also note that this discussion is only an issue among the wrangler crowd and then only a portion of them. It's hardly in question among the Jeep crowd, so don't you two fool yourself.
As much as I enjoy debating the histories and meanings, I'm still not sure what the ultimate goal here is. If you (and AMC) are correct that my TJ is really the offspring of the Cherokee, does that mean we Wrangler owners should change how we do things?
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Unread 10-14-2013, 02:56 PM   #53
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That's my point, it is only one way. The Forward Control is it's name, FC is it's designation. CJ is the designation for the civilian....(drum roll please)... JEEP. If the Forward control isn't it's official name then add that to the history re-write, they got it wrong again.
A Jeep print ad:

You want more showing that wasn't it's name? (<sarcasm) http://www.this-old-jeep.com/These_O...rol_Ads.html#5

Yes, your correct. In 72 they dropped the name for their pickup, since all the other manf. were doing their models as model numbers, ie: D100,D200, W100, / F150,F250,F350, / K1500,K2500... etc. based on the payload, they went there as well. Speculation on my part.

"Universal Jeep" was used for a while but universal was also dropped, leaving... wait for it.......... JEEP.

Have a good evening.

ps. These "pointless threads" really seem to draw your attention and consume your time.
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Unread 10-14-2013, 03:06 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjvw View Post
As much as I enjoy debating the histories and meanings, I'm still not sure what the ultimate goal here is. If you (and AMC) are correct that my TJ is really the offspring of the Cherokee, does that mean we Wrangler owners should change how we do things?
My only goal is to introduce some history to those new to Jeeps or that have been duped by Chrysler, or for those just too young to remember (or care); and to debunk some myths. When the waters get muddied as time flows by, the past always seems to suffer. Just look to Wash.DC for the greatest example of ignoring documented history.
Happy Trails.
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Unread 10-14-2013, 03:43 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade82
That's my point, it is only one way. The Forward Control is it's name, FC is it's designation. CJ is the designation for the civilian....(drum roll please)... JEEP. If the Forward control isn't it's official name then add that to the history re-write, they got it wrong again.
A Jeep print ad:

You want more showing that wasn't it's name? (<sarcasm) http://www.this-old-jeep.com/These_O...rol_Ads.html#5

Yes, your correct. In 72 they dropped the name for their pickup, since all the other manf. were doing their models as model numbers, ie: D100,D200, W100, / F150,F250,F350, / K1500,K2500... etc. based on the payload, they went there as well. Speculation on my part.

"Universal Jeep" was used for a while but universal was also dropped, leaving... wait for it.......... JEEP.

Have a good evening.

ps. These "pointless threads" really seem to draw your attention and consume your time.
Except C/K was and still is an in house designator for 2 and 4 wheel drive variants (except for 86-87 they used R/V) and part of the GM nomenclature, the trucks were actually named after their trim models like Apache, Spartan, Viking, Cheyenne, Silverado etc and then Fleetside, Stepside, Scottsdale etc...

Secondly it was 10, 20, 30, 40 in the 70's they didn't use 1500, 2500, 3500 until the 80's when the GMT400 trucks came out also in 86-87 and used that along with he R/V designator to differentiate the vehicles since both body styles were build concurrently until 91 iirc.

I guess by your reasoning anything post 1940 when GM introduced the C/K moniker and dropped whatever naming scheme it had before isn't a real GM truck and furthermore when it officially became named the Silverado that too wasn't a continuation of previous generations.
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Unread 10-14-2013, 03:46 PM   #56
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Are Jeepsters real Jeeps? Do they have a letter designation?
There is a couple Jeepster Commandos in my club. Seem pretty real to me.





What about this one?

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Unread 10-14-2013, 03:57 PM   #57
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Is that a Hilux/Taco with a Jeep grill?
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Unread 10-14-2013, 04:39 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade82 View Post
Your right Devilsfiddle, but why can't they stand on their own. They're very capable. It's a marketing thing, not a Jeep thing.



Okay then, this must be the "create your own fantasy" show. I'll stick with reality. The funny thing about the truth is, that it's an irrevocable fact. You can't just change things to suit your wishes or because you feel you don't fit in. And it's funny you speak about corporate marketing schemes when you played right into one. And you speak about lifestyle and culture of jeepers yet you want to dismiss anyone from the first 45 years (the years that made the Jeep name what it is, btw) if they don't include you or when the truth hurts. You might also note that this discussion is only an issue among the wrangler crowd and then only a portion of them. It's hardly in question among the Jeep crowd, so don't you two fool yourself.

ps. FC is a Forward Control...... CJ is a civilian JEEP!
That is very true renegade 82 it is a marking thing not a jeep thing
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Unread 10-14-2013, 04:55 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade82 View Post
That's my point, it is only one way. The Forward Control is it's name, FC is it's designation. CJ is the designation for the civilian....(drum roll please)... JEEP. If the Forward control isn't it's official name then add that to the history re-write, they got it wrong again........

Yes, your correct. In 72 they dropped the name for their pickup, since all the other manf. were doing their models as model numbers, ie: D100,D200, W100, / F150,F250,F350, / K1500,K2500... etc. based on the payload, they went there as well. Speculation on my part.

"Universal Jeep" was used for a while but universal was also dropped, leaving... wait for it.......... JEEP.

Have a good evening.

ps. These "pointless threads" really seem to draw your attention and consume your time.

Foward Control is the description of the design/series, not the name.

As in, the Foward Control Jeep FC-170


Check the ads in your own links and look at the bloded at the bottom, unless you "4-Wheel Drive" is part of the name as well. In the actual ads, it is the Foward Control Jeep FC-150/170.

Heck, the first ad in the link says "Forward Control Design" twice.

But if you want to call the FC the "Foward Control", than the CJ is the "Universal". As I've seen Jeep Universal, and Universal Jeep in ads.
(Great link of old scanned documents about the plant move of the Universal body to Toledo). http://www.cj3a.info/cj3a/body/change.html

If you believe the name Universal was dropped, or picked up and dropped, than that leads to a problem based on how you setting up your critieria.
Either any CJ that is named a Universal isn't a real Jeep (because it is named a Universal), or any CJ that not a Universal (if they used the name off the bat and later dropped it) is not a real Jeep because only Universal's are real Jeeps.
Or maybe Universal isn't a name...just a description....just like FC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade82 View Post
My only goal is to introduce some history to those new to Jeeps or that have been duped by Chrysler, or for those just too young to remember (or care); and to debunk some myths. When the waters get muddied as time flows by, the past always seems to suffer. Just look to Wash.DC for the greatest example of ignoring documented history.
You keep saying this....as if somehow the Jeep "brand" (and naming vehicles) started with Chrysler...instead of it starting with Willy's.

The waters are not muddied with time. The waters are muddied because the history is muddy. Is "Jeep" a brand or a vehicle or something more (an idea)?

Maybe a "real" Jeep are only military Jeeps? Or maybe only ACM's (Not AMC's... ACM's were making CJ bodies before Willy's)
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Unread 10-14-2013, 05:01 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJDaveX View Post
Are Jeepsters real Jeeps? Do they have a letter designation?
There is a couple Jeepster Commandos in my club. Seem pretty real to me.
Of course they are not real Jeeps....they have names. Real Jeeps don't have names. /sarcasm

Just like this 1957 DJ isn't a "Real" Jeep. (Ok...really /sarcasm)
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