Rambo1965's Water Injection Thread - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > Models > Jeep Wrangler Forums > Wrangler General Discussion > Rambo1965's Water Injection Thread

Introducing MONSTALINER™ UV Permanent DIY Roll On Bed LineRIGID LED Light Blowout Sale - All Sizes, All Series, all Stainless Steel Door Hinge Pins

Reply
Unread 06-07-2011, 08:42 PM   #16
ncb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Your mom's house, Colorado
Posts: 4,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by plym49 View Post
You say that one jar of water lasts a month, say, 1,000 miles? There must not be much water going into the engine. As support of this, there is a tiny inlet tube going thru a metering valve - tiny, tiny air flow is occuring compared to the CFM of air flowing thru your throttle body.

So what is really happening here? A very tiny (seemingly minuscule) amount of water vapor is increasing mileage 3 mpg or more? I wonder how this could be. And, again, if it were this simple, why don't the automakers do it: they have billions of dollars on the line to meet CAFE requirements.

If that tiny volume of water vapor would have that profound an effect, then why would one not experience the same increase in mileage in a humid day, or when driving in the rain? (Maybe you never see high humidity in your area.)

I would really like to understand. Perhaps a Hawthorne effect?
I was thinking the same thing. That small amount of water can't make much, if any difference.

ncb is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-09-2011, 10:47 AM   #17
Rambo1965
Registered User
1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by plym49 View Post
Suggest that you add a filter to the air inlet. You are sucking dirty air into your motor. Even though it gets 'washed', small particles of grit will get sucked right in to your motor. You can probably use a small in-line fuel filter, or a motorcycle crankcase breather.
Excellent idea. I honestly hadn't even thought of that. Seems simple enough to add in though.
Rambo1965 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-09-2011, 10:55 AM   #18
Rambo1965
Registered User
1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by plym49 View Post
You say that one jar of water lasts a month, say, 1,000 miles? There must not be much water going into the engine. As support of this, there is a tiny inlet tube going thru a metering valve - tiny, tiny air flow is occuring compared to the CFM of air flowing thru your throttle body.

So what is really happening here? A very tiny (seemingly minuscule) amount of water vapor is increasing mileage 3 mpg or more? I wonder how this could be. And, again, if it were this simple, why don't the automakers do it: they have billions of dollars on the line to meet CAFE requirements.

If that tiny volume of water vapor would have that profound an effect, then why would one not experience the same increase in mileage in a humid day, or when driving in the rain? (Maybe you never see high humidity in your area.)

I would really like to understand. Perhaps a Hawthorne effect?
Since I do live in Las Vegas, humid days are simply never an option. So I personally do not know if a humid environment will increase MPGs at all. I wasn't really trying to sell this idea to anyone. I was merely posting what I did and what seems to be working for me. I remembered the whole water vapor injection from the 80's and decided to run an experiment on my current Jeep to see if it would work for me now. It did, and I am pleased with the results. I do agree that the minute amount of water vapor shouldn't increase my MPG's the way it does, but it does. And with gas being so expensive, I am not arguing with the results.

Maybe all my system is doing is putting a wee bit more air into the system past the TBI, which could be leaning out the mixture, which could add HP and MPG, os maybe the water vapor cleaned out some gunk that was affecting my MPG. I am no engineer and I do not have access to the lab equipment needed to fully test my idea.

I just feel this is an interesting idea and would like to see someone else give it a try to see if they get the same results as I did.
Rambo1965 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-10-2011, 05:10 PM   #19
TheNewbie
Registered User
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Grand Jct, CO
Posts: 2,963
You never answered my question about the oil though. Do you run any type of oil in the water tank? Everythign I've read about water injection says you have to inject oil along with the water to avoid damage. Although the engine already produces water in the exhaust...
__________________
1995 YJ 2.5 - 4” RC lift - 1" MML - 33's - flat fenders front - TJ flares rear -Raptor lined exterior - Herc'd interior - DIY front bumper & winch plate - 136 amp alternator mod - 4.0 TB swap

My build thread...
I've got a shotgun, a rifle and a four wheel drive...
TheNewbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-12-2011, 03:43 PM   #20
muddr1
Registered User
1999 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Weare, Nh
Posts: 463
The only water produced from the exhaist is from condensation from the heating of the exhast pipe, once up to temp, there is no more water.
__________________
If we knew what we were doing it woulnt be called research
Albert Einstein
There are no rules here, were trying to accomplish something.
Thomas Edison Keep Calm,Chive On
muddr1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-12-2011, 04:23 PM   #21
rivalarrival
Stormaggedon
 
rivalarrival's Avatar
1997 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by 91BoD View Post
My thoughts on this.
It may clean up your combustion chamber, but otherewise will not allow any improvements to your system without severe tuning or boost. The reason this system appears to work is from an induced vaccum leak that would otherwise cause pinging. The pinging is stopped by the water/meth and the computer sees no noticable change in O2 readings = more power = more MPGs
I do not believe your TBI has an O2 sensor further amplifying results, but correct me if I am wrong.

As for the appearance of the discussion on HHO/Browns gas/hydrogen generators. Please start a new thread. Those types of discussions will never end due to the flat out foolishness.

Continue!

Sent from my DROID2 using JeepForum


Quote:
Originally Posted by plym49 View Post
You say that one jar of water lasts a month, say, 1,000 miles? There must not be much water going into the engine. As support of this, there is a tiny inlet tube going thru a metering valve - tiny, tiny air flow is occuring compared to the CFM of air flowing thru your throttle body.

So what is really happening here? A very tiny (seemingly minuscule) amount of water vapor is increasing mileage 3 mpg or more? I wonder how this could be. And, again, if it were this simple, why don't the automakers do it: they have billions of dollars on the line to meet CAFE requirements.

If that tiny volume of water vapor would have that profound an effect, then why would one not experience the same increase in mileage in a humid day, or when driving in the rain? (Maybe you never see high humidity in your area.)

I would really like to understand. Perhaps a Hawthorne effect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncb View Post
I was thinking the same thing. That small amount of water can't make much, if any difference.
It doesn't. Can't. Water injection *can* produce significant fuel savings gains - in the combustion chamber, water and water vapor flashes to steam, absorbing heat and expanding. But with such a tiny amount of water used, this can't make that kind of difference.

But the vacuum leak *can* lean out the fuel/air mixture, which can increase fuel economy at the risk of pinging, NOx emissions, and several other problems. In this situation, it's minimized, because the leak is most pronounced at idle, when manifold vacuum is highest/manifold pressure is lowest. The more power you try to get from the engine, the less airflow through the leak.

I think that the water is doing little other than acting as a second metering valve. I think that emptying the water out of this system and closing the metering valve to allow the same amount of airflow as with the water would provide substantially the same effects.

BUT! I do applaud the attempt. Unlike most of the other MPG scams, Water injection CAN be used to increase fuel economy, without violating the laws of thermodynamics.


Quote:
The only water produced from the exhaist is from condensation from the heating of the exhast pipe, once up to temp, there is no more water.
Gasoline is a hydrocarbon. Air is mostly semi-inert nitrogen, and oxygen. Combine it all and burn it, you're left with oxides of nitrogen, carbon, and hydrogen. NOx, CO, CO2, and H2O (Possibly H2O2 as well, but I'm not sure about that). Combustion *does* produce water, in the form of steam.
__________________
He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. --Thomas Paine

We work together every damn day. --Jon Stewart

Any gas can be a knockout gas, when you wrap a steel cylinder around it and beat someone with it.

Low Output 4 Cylinder Jeep Club member #188
rivalarrival is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-12-2011, 04:54 PM   #22
Rambo1965
Registered User
1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNewbie View Post
You never answered my question about the oil though. Do you run any type of oil in the water tank? Everythign I've read about water injection says you have to inject oil along with the water to avoid damage. Although the engine already produces water in the exhaust...
Sorry for the delay in answering, I was out of town for a few days. I honestly never heard of adding any oil to the water and did not do that with my system. I currently do not add any oil.
Rambo1965 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-13-2011, 04:42 PM   #23
plym49
Registered User
1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NA
Posts: 1,527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambo1965 View Post

Maybe all my system is doing is putting a wee bit more air into the system past the TBI, which could be leaning out the mixture, which could add HP and MPG, os maybe the water vapor cleaned out some gunk that was affecting my MPG. I am no engineer and I do not have access to the lab equipment needed to fully test my idea.
On a fuel injected vehicle, once the ECU switches things into closed loop there is no such thing as a vacuum leak leaning things out since the O2 sensor will read a lean condition, and correct the mixture back to stoichiometric by increasing the amount of fuel. A vacuum leak on an EFI car can increase the idle speed, but it does not lean the mixture (in closed loop). Many engines use electric solenoid valves to induce a vacuum 'leak' - more accurately, they increase the amount of air that goes in (without cracking open the throttle) and so the rpms rise. But the mixture is still correct.

I wonder if you would get the same mpg on a nice rainy day in an area with higher humidity than what you see out there in the desert.

Another consideration is that the extra air/water is reducing the amount of gasoline in the combustion chamber (since volume is volume), therefore reducing power, therefore you need to crack the throttle open a tiny bit more to produce the same amount of power, and the engine's volumetric efficiency increases as the throttle is opened (reduces the pumping losses), so the motor is a tiny bit more efficient and voila!, better mpg. However, you are adding so little extra air/water that I doubt this would make the large difference in mpg you report.
plym49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-13-2011, 05:49 PM   #24
Rambo1965
Registered User
1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by plym49 View Post
On a fuel injected vehicle, once the ECU switches things into closed loop there is no such thing as a vacuum leak leaning things out since the O2 sensor will read a lean condition, and correct the mixture back to stoichiometric by increasing the amount of fuel. A vacuum leak on an EFI car can increase the idle speed, but it does not lean the mixture (in closed loop). Many engines use electric solenoid valves to induce a vacuum 'leak' - more accurately, they increase the amount of air that goes in (without cracking open the throttle) and so the rpms rise. But the mixture is still correct.

I wonder if you would get the same mpg on a nice rainy day in an area with higher humidity than what you see out there in the desert.

Another consideration is that the extra air/water is reducing the amount of gasoline in the combustion chamber (since volume is volume), therefore reducing power, therefore you need to crack the throttle open a tiny bit more to produce the same amount of power, and the engine's volumetric efficiency increases as the throttle is opened (reduces the pumping losses), so the motor is a tiny bit more efficient and voila!, better mpg. However, you are adding so little extra air/water that I doubt this would make the large difference in mpg you report.
Very informative and sounds legitimate to me. As I mentioned before, I was merely reporting what I found to be true on my own Jeep. I think it would be interesting to see if anyone else got similar results. All I know is this set up is working great for me. 3 MPG may not be hybrid mileage, but I'll take it.
Rambo1965 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-17-2011, 09:52 PM   #25
cevans87
Registered User
1992 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: , North Carolina
Posts: 411
For those who are questioning things like amount of water being used and things regarding this post keep in mind that this is putting water vapor in the chambers not water, and how is doing this is by vaccum, fluids boil under vaccum (they do not get hot though, its werid physics stuff) so he is boiling the water creating water vapor which is in its expanded form, once it goes through the intake valve to the chamber the vapor reduces the air intake temp but does not harm the explosive qualities of the fuel. Once the chamber fires, the vapor dissopates... The only worry would be to run a air fuel gauge to make sure you are not leaning out the mixture and this applies to both carb, tbi, and mpi, also the oxygen sensor will not be effected as it does not read H2O, only O2 levels thats why its called an O2 sensor... Great thread something i might try in the next few weeks on my 4.7 stroker in my 1990 YJ
__________________
Built Not Bought #447, 1992 Jeep XJ Supercharged 4.7, 1988 Jeep YJ Auto 4.2L, 2008 Commander Limited HEMI, 1990 Jeep YJ 4.7L Fuel Injected AW4, 1981 Scrambler 304 Auto

I Am The Jeep Surgeon!!!
cevans87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-18-2011, 09:28 PM   #26
Rambo1965
Registered User
1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cevans87 View Post
For those who are questioning things like amount of water being used and things regarding this post keep in mind that this is putting water vapor in the chambers not water, and how is doing this is by vaccum, fluids boil under vaccum (they do not get hot though, its werid physics stuff) so he is boiling the water creating water vapor which is in its expanded form, once it goes through the intake valve to the chamber the vapor reduces the air intake temp but does not harm the explosive qualities of the fuel. Once the chamber fires, the vapor dissopates... The only worry would be to run a air fuel gauge to make sure you are not leaning out the mixture and this applies to both carb, tbi, and mpi, also the oxygen sensor will not be effected as it does not read H2O, only O2 levels thats why its called an O2 sensor... Great thread something i might try in the next few weeks on my 4.7 stroker in my 1990 YJ
Very nicely put. On my Jeep, I installed the Howell TBI Fuel Injection, and as I've read in other forums, my Howell system has run rich since day one. No amount of tweaking or communicating with Todd from Howell seems to fix the problem. My overall mileage dropped from the old carb days, and in hot weather, I regularly got the check engine light flashing the dreaded "RICH O/2" Reading. In cooler weather, the Check engine light would come only on occassionally.

Since I installed the Water Vapor system, I have not seen the Check Engine light at all throughout the colder months. Now that we are well into June and the 100+ temps have arrived, I am happy to report that I have still not seen the Fuel Rich condition. As I suspected, the Water tank now needs to be refilled weekly instead of monthly, but that isn't too difficult to stay on top of.

So maybe I have figured out a band-aid cure for the fuel rich condition that has plagued me for the past 4 years. Leaner fuel mixture stopped the check engine light, improved my MPGs and increased performance a bit. Seems like a winner for me and my own situation.

As I have stated before, I do hope someone else will give this a try and let me know if they get the same results I did.
Rambo1965 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-18-2011, 10:23 PM   #27
rivalarrival
Stormaggedon
 
rivalarrival's Avatar
1997 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by cevans87 View Post
For those who are questioning things like amount of water being used and things regarding this post keep in mind that this is putting water vapor in the chambers not water, and how is doing this is by vaccum,
He's using engine vacuum to pull air into a water tank. The air is forced by atmospheric pressure to the bottom of the tank, where it bubbles up, frothing the water and hopefully carrying water droplets to the intake manifold.
Quote:

fluids boil under vaccum (they do not get hot though, its werid physics stuff) so he is boiling the water creating water vapor which is in its expanded form,
No, he's not boiling the water with the vacuum. He's pulling air through it. Furthermore, water vapor is undesirable. Horsepower decreases as humidity increases. What's wanted in the intake manifold is regular, condensed water - think "fog" or "mist".
Quote:
once it goes through the intake valve to the chamber the vapor reduces the air intake temp but does not harm the explosive qualities of the fuel. Once the chamber fires, the vapor dissopates... The only worry would be to run a air fuel gauge to make sure you are not leaning out the mixture and this applies to both carb, tbi, and mpi, also the oxygen sensor will not be effected as it does not read H2O, only O2 levels thats why its called an O2 sensor... Great thread something i might try in the next few weeks on my 4.7 stroker in my 1990 YJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambo1965 View Post
Very nicely put. On my Jeep, I installed the Howell TBI Fuel Injection, and as I've read in other forums, my Howell system has run rich since day one. No amount of tweaking or communicating with Todd from Howell seems to fix the problem. My overall mileage dropped from the old carb days, and in hot weather, I regularly got the check engine light flashing the dreaded "RICH O/2" Reading. In cooler weather, the Check engine light would come only on occassionally.

Since I installed the Water Vapor system, I have not seen the Check Engine light at all throughout the colder months. Now that we are well into June and the 100+ temps have arrived, I am happy to report that I have still not seen the Fuel Rich condition. As I suspected, the Water tank now needs to be refilled weekly instead of monthly, but that isn't too difficult to stay on top of.

So maybe I have figured out a band-aid cure for the fuel rich condition that has plagued me for the past 4 years. Leaner fuel mixture stopped the check engine light, improved my MPGs and increased performance a bit. Seems like a winner for me and my own situation.

As I have stated before, I do hope someone else will give this a try and let me know if they get the same results I did.
A fuel-rich condition is terrible on fuel economy. Fixing that correctly would probably get you even better results.
__________________
He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. --Thomas Paine

We work together every damn day. --Jon Stewart

Any gas can be a knockout gas, when you wrap a steel cylinder around it and beat someone with it.

Low Output 4 Cylinder Jeep Club member #188
rivalarrival is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-18-2011, 11:09 PM   #28
plym49
Registered User
1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NA
Posts: 1,527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambo1965 View Post
Very nicely put. On my Jeep, I installed the Howell TBI Fuel Injection, and as I've read in other forums, my Howell system has run rich since day one. No amount of tweaking or communicating with Todd from Howell seems to fix the problem. My overall mileage dropped from the old carb days, and in hot weather, I regularly got the check engine light flashing the dreaded "RICH O/2" Reading. In cooler weather, the Check engine light would come only on occassionally.

Since I installed the Water Vapor system, I have not seen the Check Engine light at all throughout the colder months. Now that we are well into June and the 100+ temps have arrived, I am happy to report that I have still not seen the Fuel Rich condition. As I suspected, the Water tank now needs to be refilled weekly instead of monthly, but that isn't too difficult to stay on top of.

So maybe I have figured out a band-aid cure for the fuel rich condition that has plagued me for the past 4 years. Leaner fuel mixture stopped the check engine light, improved my MPGs and increased performance a bit. Seems like a winner for me and my own situation.

As I have stated before, I do hope someone else will give this a try and let me know if they get the same results I did.
This is really important information. For an unknown reason your engine has been running above stoichiometric even though it is fuel injected. IOW, your engine was not running properly. Now, instead of correcting the basal problem (and I understand that you have tried, to no avail), you added the gizmo featured in this thread. If your engine was running rich, then anything that leans it out will increase power and mileage.

This additional information you posted is relevant and should be considered by those planning to experiment with this device. For example, does anything change on an engine that was properly running to begin with?
plym49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-19-2011, 12:30 AM   #29
Drix
Registered User
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Orting, Washington
Posts: 828
There are a few nice systems that for diesels. The same companies make them for gas engines also. Really nice computer controlled set ups that activate automatically.
__________________
95' YJ 4" lift 33"x12.5r15's D30/8.8 locked with 4:88's
USMC Jeep Club #6
"Why in hell can't the Army do it if the Marines can. They are the same kind of men; why can't they be like Marines."
Gen. John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, USA; 12 February 1918
Drix is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-26-2011, 03:51 PM   #30
ThomasYJ
Registered User
1993 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: , All over
Posts: 645
well i'll be staying tuned for this one! a bonus, ive got a 99 manifold im ready to swap in that has an extra vac port. if some ppl put this through the ringer and it proves to be legitimate, i guess ill be putting it to use!! great thread rambo
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
If you can't be safe be deadly.
We are what we repeatedly do. Therefore, Excellence isn't an act but a habit.
ThomasYJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
increase , injection , mpg , vapor , water
Thread Tools


Suggested Threads





Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.