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Unread 11-28-2011, 07:26 PM   #31
oldtime_ironman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anticanman View Post
Well like I mentioned, your winch might be fine but your alternator is shot. What then? Even the best winch isn't self charging.
That's why I'm holding out for a PTO winch... a few wrecking yards around here have old tow trucks being parted out... and I just happen to have a spare 5-horse Briggs engine...
.

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Unread 11-28-2011, 10:23 PM   #32
444
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If survival is what your goal is, I wouldn't be counting on a pull pal. Doesn't do you much good when the ground is frozen, or too soft for it to bite in enough to pull you along. IMO off-roading by yourself is dangerous. You can accept the risk and go ahead and do it, I don't care, but if something was to happen like a roll-over, there's every chance you could be seriously injured. I have a snowmobile and a quad and always go out with someone else just for safety if nothing else. If I'm not going to have another person with me, I'm not going to go 4x4ing somewhere where my life would be on the line if I got stuck. Wheel however you wish, it doesn't affect me in any way. From a survival standpoint, I would rather have a cheap winch + a gps + a satellite phone instead of just an expensive winch.
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Unread 11-28-2011, 10:58 PM   #33
Karma
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HI 444,
I am happy so many of you are conscious of the survival aspect of 4 wheeling. However, before criticizing me for my solo ways, you should read the entire thread. If you do you will discover that I always carry a Personal Location Beacon in my Jeep. I don't know if you know what this is.

It is a small radio transmitter with a built-in GPS and a local low power beep-beep transmitter and a GPS receiver. When activated, it sends your rough GPS location to an array of geosynchronous satellites. The signal is relayed to a ground based receiving station manned by the U. S. Air Force. If it is determined that the distress call is legitimate by phoning the contact numbers I provided when I registered the unit, the Search and Rescue team most local to the received GPS location is dispatched. The beep-beep signal is then used to pin point my exact location.

This is no toy. It cost $700 five years ago. And I know it works because I accidentally activated it while attempting a self-test. Within 5 minutes I had received a call from the Air Force. Embarrassing? You bet. But the Air warrior was really nice. Had he not actually talked to me, I would have been rescued in my own house!!!

Could a scenario be imagined where even this device could be defeated? Yes, I think so. But to do so you are entering a truly low probability situation.

One more thing. Have any of you actually used a Pull Pal? Have any of you actually SEEN a Pull Pal? Well, I can tell you that they work really well.

And, I live in the northern New Mexico mountains. The vast majority of my trips are in desert country. I hate snow and cold weather. And it can get cold here. Last winter we got down to -16 F. You can bet that I was not out in that. For me 4 wheeling is a three season sport.

Finally, I truly hate having my actions determined by a group. I much rather depend on my own resources. Is there danger in this? Yep, of this there is no doubt. However, if I don't go solo, I usually won't go at all. And this is not acceptable. So, to do what I do, I must understand and accept the risk and mitigate it whenever possible.

This thread is being derailed. Maybe we can get back on subject.

444, you should fill out your profile. For all I know you are driving a VW Beetle.

Sparky
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Unread 11-28-2011, 11:32 PM   #34
oldtime_ironman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karma View Post
HI 444,

One more thing. Have any of you actually used a Pull Pal? Have any of you actually SEEN a Pull Pal? Well, I can tell you that they work really well.

And, I live in the northern New Mexico mountains. The vast majority of my trips are in desert country. I hate snow and cold weather. And it can get cold here. Last winter we got down to -16 F. You can bet that I was not out in that. For me 4 wheeling is a three season sport

Sparky
^^^^ X2 on the Pull Pal. I made something like it for work once at a heavy equipment company. It flat out worked. If the ground was soft, it would simply keep digging in deeper till it had a good enough bite.

I'm out and about year round tho.
.
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Unread 11-29-2011, 12:11 AM   #35
timatoe
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Unread 11-29-2011, 08:08 AM   #36
GrantYJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anticanman View Post
Well like I mentioned, your winch might be fine but your alternator is shot. What then? Even the best winch isn't self charging.
That's right; however, that's where redundancy comes in. My on-board welder is an old ford alternator. I have a voltage regulator hooked up on the firewall for this reason. If my primary alternator fails, I can unplug it, run the jumper from my welder alt., and plug in the regulator. It's not optimal and you get warning lights on the dash, but it works well enough to get you out of a bad situation... I'm still considering dual batteries, but they're on hold until I get a bit more done on my rig.

(I'm hoping that this will give a little "tech." credence to this thread).

I also have an old Warn 8274. By far the weakest link is the solenoid packs and I carry an extra pair of DPDT solenoids. I'm not a huge fan of Planetary winches, but I have owned them in the past. I just like a simpler setup. I love my spur gear winches and I like everything about worm drives with the exception of line speed.

Personally, I don't wheel alone often. I'm not saying it's good or bad, I just don't do it that much, but I'm also a huge fan of being prepared. I also agree that riding street bikes with helmets is probably a good idea, but I occasionally like to ride mine without. What I'm getting at is that as long as you put on your big boy pants and are willing to deal with the consequences of your actions, nobody should be telling you what you can and can't do as long as you aren't putting other people at risk. The OP appears to be aware of his actions and willing to live with the risk.

I'm also impressed by the original post. I get sick of seeing "buy Warn because everything else is trash". A winch is a tool. I have a lot of tools. My primary tools are good quality and most of my moderately used tools are of good quality, but if it's something that I may only use once every year or two it probably came from Harbor Freight.
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Unread 11-30-2011, 08:04 PM   #37
bella mia
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Point being is if your life depends on a winch common sense would say to buy two winches that equal the cost of one 8724 type winch and take them both with you. Almost every important system in the world depends on redundancy for dependability rather than buying the single best piece of equipment. There is no manufacturer that guarantees their winch won't break. Any two winches that equal the price of one 8724 Type winch would be the prudent course of action. Harbor freight used to sell a small gasoline motor powered winch that would make an excellent addition to off road equipment. That way you would have a totally independent stand alone back up system.
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Unread 11-30-2011, 08:24 PM   #38
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Unread 12-01-2011, 09:57 AM   #39
Karma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bella mia View Post
Point being is if your life depends on a winch common sense would say to buy two winches that equal the cost of one 8724 type winch and take them both with you. Almost every important system in the world depends on redundancy for dependability rather than buying the single best piece of equipment. There is no manufacturer that guarantees their winch won't break. Any two winches that equal the price of one 8724 Type winch would be the prudent course of action. Harbor freight used to sell a small gasoline motor powered winch that would make an excellent addition to off road equipment. That way you would have a totally independent stand alone back up system.
HI bella,
Honestly, I think you are just being argumentative. There is no perfect answer to the problem. All solutions must take into account the practical aspects of the situation. Your solution is not practical at all for lots of reasons. If you had read the whole thread, you would find I have taken PRACTICAL measures to mitigate the risk. But, there is no perfect solution short of not getting out of bed in the morning.


Thanks for your input,

Sparky
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Unread 12-01-2011, 10:12 AM   #40
Ripper3494
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I made the mistake of buying a 12,000lb black label winch off ebay a few years ago, a good winch is worth its weight in gold. But this, winch could only pull me out of very minor problems and it didnt pull anywhere near 12,000lbs, more like 5k
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[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/94-yj-6-0-build-spud-1218315/[/url]
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my on board alternator/welder write up
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my tj 1/2 doors on a yj write up
[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/tj-uppers-yj-half-doors-hard-top-installation-1417686/[/url]
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Unread 12-01-2011, 04:06 PM   #41
GrantYJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bella mia View Post
Point being is if your life depends on a winch common sense would say to buy two winches that equal the cost of one 8724 type winch and take them both with you. Almost every important system in the world depends on redundancy for dependability rather than buying the single best piece of equipment. There is no manufacturer that guarantees their winch won't break. Any two winches that equal the price of one 8724 Type winch would be the prudent course of action. Harbor freight used to sell a small gasoline motor powered winch that would make an excellent addition to off road equipment. That way you would have a totally independent stand alone back up system.
Maybe your YJ is bigger than mine, but I'm a little too short on room to be lugging around an extra winch. If I were going to drag around an extra, it would be on the front of the extra Jeep that I was taking (you know, for redundancy).

As far as price, I bought my current 8274 less than a year ago for $120. It was just the gearcase, drum, end mount, fairlead, and hook. I bought the cable and a solenoid pack with controller from Pierce Sales, and a used motor from a newer Warn. I rebuilt the winch and used welding cables to hook up to the battery. I've got under $400. in mine. Personally, I'd rather have that than two $200 winches (assuming that you could find a winch for $200).

I purchased an old Warn Belleview a couple of months ago that is fully functional (the cable is a bit ratty though) for $100. The Warn Belleview is the predecessor of the 8274 and mine is an 8k lb. model without reverse. If I bolted it up (and bought new cable), you'd have to locate two $100 winches for me to "double up".

I employ redundancy where it's practical; however, I'd rather have reliable simplicity any day of the week. As I said before, I like spur gear winches. If you've ever taken one apart, you know how wonderfully simple they are. If you maintain them at all, a failure in the gearcase is almost unheard of. Sure, cables could break and solenoids might fry, but very little else goes wrong with these winches. If you do end up with a motor problem, you can usually straighten out the problem with a little effort (and ingenuity if your in the field).
Worm drive winches are just as reliable if not more reliable. Carry extra solenoids and a few cable splices and you should be able to limp out.

A planetary winch is something else entirely. They are very intricate devices that have a lot of parts and a lot of places where things can go astray.

Basically what I'm saying is that I'd feel more comfortable with a single spur gear or worm drive with suitable replacement parts than two planetary winches. Especially if the planetary winches in question are of questionable quality.

I'm not trying to bash planetary winches. I've owned my share and haven't had too many problems with them. I've only owned one other 8274. It was older than me and had never been rebuilt (or maintained). I never should have let it go with the K-5 that it was bolted to. It's the reason that I bought the one that I've got now. There is a lot to be said for not having to worry if your winch is going to work or not.
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Unread 12-01-2011, 05:31 PM   #42
KKiowaTJ
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I also wheel alone most of the time. My trek starts at the house and i drive to and from trails, Sometimes its 3k round trip. I also have to rely on my own equipment to be up to any challenge.

I sold my pull pal as IMO its worthless and takes up space that something of better importance can be carried. I can bury my spare and use it, A cheap boat anchor from wally world, Or a hammer drill and a couple red head bolts for an anchor in rock.

I have mile marker 8k and it has never failed me yet. I have had it for many years, Many, Many high load/amp pulls and its still like new. Yeah its slower than most winches, But i prefer it that way so i can control the pull and not burn anything up.

When i got it the "bandwagon" said its a POS etc but 5+ years later its still going strong. But when i do have to replace it, Now that i know how much i do use it on and off the trail, I will be looking at superwinch or warn for its replacement.

A cheap winch is better than no winch, But if your going solo you better be prepared for fail and know how to fix the problem to drive out safely. To each his own
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Unread 12-01-2011, 06:38 PM   #43
Karma
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HI All,
Three of us were wheeling in Utah's Como Bluff area (an amazing place, BTW) a couple of years ago. We were running along a small creek and the trail ran out on our side and continued on the other side. We had to cross a very muddy bank area. A built Jeep Wrangler, driven by an experienced and a good friend, headed across and he radioed back that we should stop due to the mud. When Terry says stop, you stop. The second vehicle, a Jeep Cherokee, did not have his CB on and continued into the mud pit and got stopped pronto in spite of my horn honks. He continued all the way until mud up past the axle tubes stopped him dead.

I was still on dry ground at the rear. We figured we had to winch him out. Unfortunately I could not get a good line angle. So, we decided to try to pull him out sideways. With the winch (Warn 8274) cable hooked to a tow point on the rear bumper, me standing on my brakes, the wheels chocked, I pulled that sucker out at an angle of 90 degrees to the Cherokee. It was very impressive as the Cherokee started moving sideways then pivoted around the front wheels then came straight back to me. I had about 125 feet of cable spooled out.

Makes you appreciate a great winch. The mud gave a loud suck as the Cherokee came free. Something to remember is that if his CB had been functioning, none of this would have been necessary. The guy was an idiot!! I'll never wheel with him again. People like that are dangerous.

Sparky
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Unread 12-01-2011, 06:46 PM   #44
Karma
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HI All,
Three of us were wheeling in Utah's Como Bluff area (an amazing place, BTW), about 20 miles South of Blanding, a couple of years ago. We were running along a small creek and the trail ran out on our side and continued on the other side. We had to cross a very muddy bank area. A built Jeep Wrangler, driven by an experienced and a good friend, headed across and he radioed back that we should stop due to the mud. Terry almost got himself stuck but wiggled free. When Terry says stop, you stop. The second vehicle, a Jeep Cherokee, did not have his CB on and continued into the mud pit and got stopped pronto in spite of my horn honks. He continued all the way until mud up past the axle tubes stopped him dead.

I was still on dry ground at the rear. We figured we had to winch him out. Unfortunately I could not get a good line angle. So, we decided to try to pull him out sideways. With the winch (Warn 8274) cable hooked to a tow point on the rear bumper, me standing on my brakes, the wheels chocked, I winched that sucker out at an angle of 90 degrees to the Cherokee. It was very impressive as the Cherokee started moving sideways then pivoted around the front wheels then came straight back to me. I had about 125 feet of cable spooled out so I could avoid the mud. How many winches do you know that has 150 feet of cable on the spool? The 8274 does.

Makes you appreciate a great winch. Terry also has a Warn 8274 which he did not have to use. The mud gave a loud suck as the Cherokee came free. The guy in the Cherokee had neither a CB OR a winch. If we weren't there he would have been laying in the mud, dessicated like an old mule carcass.

Something to remember is that if his CB had been functioning, none of this would have been necessary. The guy was an idiot!! I'll never wheel with him again. People like that are dangerous and don't care if they put others in danger.

Sparky
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Unread 12-02-2011, 09:21 AM   #45
bella mia
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No argument at all. The original poster said that his life might be dependent on a winch. If your life depends on a winch then two winches that cost the same as one winch would be the way to go. But we will be posting our SOA conversion that is going to cost about two hundred dollars for parts. Now that has the possibility of opening up some real controversial ideas. We turned the stock transfer case into a non slip yoke with a double cv joint for about $75. Poke told me how to get parts from a TJ to make a CV driveshaft for a yard crane I was building. Once We started that we decided to make a non slip cv yoke rear drive shaft. Almost done with that job probably today. Used all stock shocks from adding extended shackles. Found a used Flowmaster Series ten for 20 dollars and put that on. Gives the 4 cylinder a killer sound. Plenty of pictures as soon as I figure out how to post from IPadII.
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