Bronco vs Wrangler - Page 3 - JeepForum.com

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post #31 of 114 Old 01-28-2017, 08:54 AM
M151Mutt
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Hopefully Ford is actually trying to take on the Wrangler with a body on-frame, removable top Raptor based suv. That would be pretty sweet


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post #32 of 114 Old 01-28-2017, 09:29 AM
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you have to keep in mind that the few here are a bit more off road orientated then the average joe. I really doubt ford is going to build the entire bronco line to satistify the 1 percent that will use them off road. 95 percent of them will probably never leave the blacktop.
If people bought vehicles based on what they actually NEEDED, almost everyone would drive mini vans - the most practical vehicle on the planet. It is more pertinent IMO to build a vehicle people WANT. Who cares why the rest of the population drives wranglers, they subsidize the cost for those of us with scratches in the skid plates. Wrangler sales are blowing up, while the rest of the market is full of the same muddled boring crap. Hopefully Ford is smart enough to build something people want
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post #33 of 114 Old 01-29-2017, 06:01 AM
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I could care less how you drive your wrangler and agree I thank everyone that doesn't need one that buys one. Thing is even they are a rare breed. Most people do buy whats practical. Just count the number of mini vans and pickups you see on the road. Look at how many small economy cars you see. Why? because there practical and are what sells! Ford could care less about some kid that wants to put big tires on there new bronco. What they care about is sales and there going to aim that thing at where it will sell the most and that means sport utility. Id guess it is more going to be something that targets the Cherokee and Wagoneer more then the wrangler. One reason is they know jeep owners are pretty loyal to the brand and not to many are going to stray and two then know that theres not a big demand for a vehicle like the jk. If there was youd see more. Money is what talks and there going to make what sells period.

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post #34 of 114 Old 01-29-2017, 06:25 AM
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Lloyd, it would be interesting to analyze the numbers of economy cars vs luxury cars, mini vans vs sport utilities, and most of all pickups (which are actually used like or at least configured to be used like trucks vs. the 4-door, short bed, sport utility replacement pickups which seem to amount to a very high percentage of sales in the segment).

I don't know that we would find practical outsells impractical though it might depend largely on the subjective placement of the practical goalposts.

But back on pickups, I'm not sure how practical the current 4-door short bed pickups are compared to their smaller 2-door long bed predecessors.

And I should say I like the segment, but most people who drive them seem to need them as much as the mom driving alone in the Escalade. Mid-size pickups are as large or larger than full-size pickups a mere decade or so ago and full-size pickups are so big they can't even fit in parking spots anymore.

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post #35 of 114 Old 01-29-2017, 06:44 AM
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I guess the loss of a couple feet of box vs the gain of a back seat is what adds to the practicality not take it away. You can still buy a 2dr standard cab truck from any of the big three if that's what you want but its a small percentage of the sales. even work trucks and farm trucks have the need to carry a few people on occasion. Even contractors and farmers have kids to haul around after work. Heck You can even get a 3/4 ton club cab with a 8 foot box if you don't mind sailing a ship. Have to agree though they sure are getting bigger. My 2015 even feels substaintialy bigger to drive them my 06. As to needing it well ill say this. I don't need a truck every day but I couldn't get by with just a wrangler either. I could probably buy a beater pickup and use it for when I need to haul stuff but then again I could do the same and buy a beater jeep.


Again ill say that they make what they think sells. Its why you rarely even see a standard cab on a lot because very few want them. Now what you might see from ford is a bronco that's aimed at what the majority want with an option for a model that's a bit more offroad. Maybe gas shocks a bit bigger tires and maybe even a bit higher stance but I doubt your going to see an offroad model with a completely different suspension system. Nobodys going to pay the 60k for a bronco that the raptor costs eco boost 6 cyl it would be a pretty capable 4x4 without a straight axle. Id bet with some decent tires and shocks a posi in the rear and a eco boost 6 cyl it would be a pretty capable 4x4 even without a straight axle. Keep in mind that its been a long time since weve had straight axle pickups and it hasn't keep them from going off road. As a matter of fact id bet that my 06 that was fitted with 285 mud terrians would put any of my old lifted straight axle under powered k10s for the 70s and 80s to shame. Id also bet that times running out on the straight axle wranglers. theres just better suspension technology made today.
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Originally Posted by Kev M View Post
Lloyd, it would be interesting to analyze the numbers of economy cars vs luxury cars, mini vans vs sport utilities, and most of all pickups (which are actually used like or at least configured to be used like trucks vs. the 4-door, short bed, sport utility replacement pickups which seem to amount to a very high percentage of sales in the segment).

I don't know that we would find practical outsells impractical though it might depend largely on the subjective placement of the practical goalposts.

But back on pickups, I'm not sure how practical the current 4-door short bed pickups are compared to their smaller 2-door long bed predecessors.

And I should say I like the segment, but most people who drive them seem to need them as much as the mom driving alone in the Escalade. Mid-size pickups are as large or larger than full-size pickups a mere decade or so ago and full-size pickups are so big they can't even fit in parking spots anymore.

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post #36 of 114 Old 01-29-2017, 06:51 AM
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Like I said it depends where you set the goalposts of "practicality".

So I disagree that the popular land yachts we see today in the guise of pickup trucks are actually "practical" for most who choose them.

They're big giant compromises that offer a bit of a lot of things marketed in image.

They are a recognition of the fact that most people who buy pickups don't actually NEED pickups most of the time.

But most people don't WANT to drive a mini van or economy car.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing buying on want over need, that's why I have a JKU or uh most vehicles I've ever bought.
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post #37 of 114 Old 01-29-2017, 11:28 AM
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Minivan the most functional? Hahahahahaha

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post #38 of 114 Old 01-29-2017, 05:12 PM
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I feel like Ford has made a lot of disappointing moves lately. They seem to be way more out of touch with their fans than FCA. I think Jeep and Dodge have it down as far as pleasing their fan base. Wouldn't be surprised if they disappoint Bronco fans with a lame on-road oriented vehicle

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post #39 of 114 Old 01-29-2017, 08:45 PM
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But here's the way I see it: Ford sells an Escape, Edge, Explorer, and Expedition. That is already a full range of street suvs (arguable with exception of expedition). The Jeep Wrangler is (probably, not going to look it up) FCAs most profitable vehicle. It is also the ONLY vehicle in it's segment. It's kind of a no brainer.

That said, when do car companies make good decisions...

Pickups are actually exactly like the wrangler. People buy a lot of them because it's something they want, and it's finally practical enough they can get away with it
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post #40 of 114 Old 01-30-2017, 02:51 AM
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i guess I agree and disagree. surely everyone that buys a pickup doesn't need it. lots of them running around in citys by people who rarely if ever use them like a truck. but I live in a rural area. I like in an area that gets tons of snow. theres probably as many people that own pickups for only vehicles here then anywhere. first reason is you might not NEED 4 wheel drive but for safety in the winter its pretty much a necessity. A 4x4 pickup is much better in snow and ice then a jeep or even a sport utility due to its longer wheelbase. most everyone up here owns snowmobiles or 4 wheelers or side by sides. some own all three (like me). A pickup is a lot handier for hauling them then pulling around a trailer. I also burn firewood. I need a truck to haul wood. I hunt and have a camp. My jeep isn't going to haul all I need to camp.


In the winter my wife drives the truck because she still works and has to drive through one of the worse snow and storm pieces of road up here. About 30 yards from the shore of lake superior. In the summer she likes driving the jeep better so we switch. We are typical of the people up here and that's why you see more pickups on the road then any kind of a car. Now if I lived in down town LA or even Detroit I sure would say that owning a full sized truck is not practical but for most they offer as much interior room or more so then any car. They ride just as good. My full sized Silverado gets better gas mileage then my jk. Has 4 doors so kids and friends don't have to be contortionist to get in the back. Bottom like is its WAY more practical then have a jeep for an only vehicle and theres no car or sport utility that can do everything my truck does. So in my opinion there very practical for my lifestyle.


I know if I had to go down the one vechile the truck would stay and the jeep would go, that's for sure. I think a lot of people agree because full sized trucks are sellers. as a matter of fact I think the ford full sized trucks are one of the biggest selling vehicles in the country. so id have to guess more agree with me then you. I really doubt everyone buying them is shelling out 45k just to look cool. kind of silly too to say that most people don't want to drive a mini van or economy car. Bottom like is MOST people aren't into to vehicles like you and I and what they drive isn't all that important to them. practicality and saving money is. The probably wonder why ANYONE who has to drive 60 miles a day to go to work and back would ever even consider something that gets 18mpg when they can get twice that in the stupid prius. Or a young family who lives in a city or big rural area that has 3 kids and a soccer mom who hauls kids and grocerys around and needs room but doesn't want a BIG vehicle. maybe has two kids in baby seats would be hard pressed not to consider a mini van practical and just what she wants.


Like the trucks they sell enough of both of those vehicles to prove many think there practical. I really doubt ANYONE buys a prius or mini van thinking there cool driving it. Funny thing is that someone who drives a jeep would even claim that a pickup isn't practical. You and I drive probably a vehicle that's probably on the top ten of not practical vehicles. One that no doubt sell to more people that just want to look cool then anything on the market short of a corvette. Want the truth about my jeeps. I buy them for one reason. I might use them for others but if it wasn't for the fact that it gets me into my hunting spot I wouldn't own one. Only other thing things that will are 4 wheelers and side by sides and its a cold 5 mile trip every morning and night going in and out and back to camp. If it wasn't for that I could live just fine with my Silverado and my side by side for having fun in the woods. But I'm old and don't like getting cold so I justify a jeep as a second vehicle instead of a second pickup or a car. I don't work so a car would do me fine. On the days the weathers crappy I can just stay home.


boy I got long winded here. Ive given my opinion and its surely not the opinion of everyone. IF everyone agreed on the vehicle that best suits them there would only be one vehicle on the road. If everyones life was the same. location was the same ect then you could claim you know whats practical for me to own but its not. So ill leave it at that. Ill sit in the background and chuckle when for brings out there new "SPORT UTILITY" bronco because you can about bet the farm that's what its going to be.
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Like I said it depends where you set the goalposts of "practicality".

So I disagree that the popular land yachts we see today in the guise of pickup trucks are actually "practical" for most who choose them.

They're big giant compromises that offer a bit of a lot of things marketed in image.

They are a recognition of the fact that most people who buy pickups don't actually NEED pickups most of the time.

But most people don't WANT to drive a mini van or economy car.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing buying on want over need, that's why I have a JKU or uh most vehicles I've ever bought.

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post #41 of 114 Old 01-30-2017, 05:24 AM
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like in an area that gets tons of snow. theres probably as many people that own pickups for only vehicles here then anywhere. first reason is you might not NEED 4 wheel drive but for safety in the winter its pretty much a necessity. A 4x4 pickup is much better in snow and ice then a jeep or even a sport utility due to its longer wheelbase. most everyone up here owns snowmobiles or 4 wheelers or side by sides. some own all three (like me). A pickup is a lot handier for hauling them then pulling around a trailer. I also burn firewood. I need a truck to haul wood.
Nah, facts not in evidence.

1. Wheelbase is cancelled out by lack of weight over drive wheels. Many sport utility vehicles are much better on snow and ice for this reason, think Subaru not pickup. They also have the advantage of having up to double the mileage and often lower costs than today's monster pickups.

2. Side-by-sides are easier to load than motorcycles but pickups still require tall ramps and a danger of mishaps, while trailers offer a more practical and easier load height, plus room for gear in the bed (or protected in the back of an SUV/wagon).

3. Same utility trailer can haul wood.

Again, I like pickups, but few people other than contractors and farmers really NEED them.

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post #42 of 114 Old 01-30-2017, 06:15 AM
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have to come back one more time. My dad has a two your old suburu outback. It gets 24mpg, my Silverado gets 22. yes it goes good in the snow. But put 3 foot snow drifts on the road after a blizzard and see if you can follow a fullsized 4x4 though them. Yes you can load stuff on a trailer I have a couple of those too but someone living in two doesn't allways have the space to store one and I personally don't want to tow a trailer everytime I want to haul a four wheeler. that and just pulling my empty utility trailer drags my gas mileage down for over 20 to around 15. then I will say this. How many sport utilitys are rated to pull a couple cords of wood in a trailer? How many have brakes good enough to stop a trailer full of wood or with a large side by side? I once towed my razor to camp on my trailer with my tj. I got it to camp but we had a bunch of snow while I was out there and towing it back home was enough to age you 5 years! My pickup would have done it with you barely knowing it was behind you.


Like I said my dad has a suburu but guess what, he still has a full sized pickup. At 82 he still finds enough practical uses to justify owning one. Why because it does ALOT that youd never be able to do going wup ti doo in your Subaru. Or in one of the sport utilitys that are nothing buy square 4 wheel drive vans. drive what you want. You and I obviously have different needs in vehicles. Me I cant see buying something that works 75 percent of the time when I can buy something that does it all. I don't have to drive on a freeway (there isn't one within a 100 miles of here) I don't have to try to navigate through a city. The nearest city to me is green bay Wisconson at about a 150 miles away and its hardly like driving through NY city.


Like ive said I about chuckle at this. A guy who buys a JK trying to argue about whats a practical vehicle. I know mine isn't. Can your wk2 carry more then my Silverado? Doubt it. Can it tow more? doubt it. Does it have anymore seating room NOPE it has less. Does it get any better gas mileage? Doubt it. Does it have better resale value? really doubt it. Can it go to home supply and carry home a couple sheets of plywood or even a new stove or refrigerator?? Nope. tell me now what it does do that my truck wont??? Now when your done try the same question on your jk unlimited. there big enough that a fullsized short box truck will go down any trail they will. It wouldn't even make the trip to my deer blind or I might have considered one. So lets here your practicality arguments for your choice in vehicles. Bet you could probably get by with a prius and a side by side if push came to shove but you obviously don't want to. So because you don't have a need for something don't try to tell me that what I'm buying isn't practical for me.


Lets look at the numbers. Ford sells about 350k full sized truck, GM about the same if you lump in gmc's. Ram sells about 165k. Now add the full sized jap trucks in there and over a million americans buy a new full sized truck every year. A 100k by jks and 175k (a very respectable number) buy wagoneer/Cherokees. But bottom line is even ram with the lowest sales of the big three sells as many full sized trucks as any jeep model made. Out of that million buying full sized trucks id bet a much bigger percentage of them use them for what there intended at least once in a while then people are using jks for there intended purpose. Don't know about where you live but around here jeeps are probably considered a poser vehicle more then any other thing on the road. Probably more tjs drove by young girls and old men then are driven by guys who actually off road in them with any frequency.

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post #43 of 114 Old 01-30-2017, 06:55 AM
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Lloyd you're Straw Manning the discussion.

I'm not trying to tell YOU what YOU should buy and what works for YOU.

I also never claimed either my JKU or WK2 were the most practical vehicles. As a matter of fact I started that I've bought most of my vehicles on desire over need.

Also the truck sales numbers don't prove anything like you're representing. They are statements of popularity not NEED.

The funny thing is I have no problem with that (as I've stated).

That said, you don't actually think you represent the majority of pickup buyers? There aren't that my hunters and campers out there.

Also the population of the US I'd a lot more diverse then the black and white examples you're using in an attempt to prove need. It's not just city folk and hunters.

If you're not hauling stuff weekly then an SUV can be a lot not efficient.

Busting through 3' snow drifts aren't the norm for the vast majority of not only the US population but the world's population.

The Subaru anecdotes are cute but off target as well. Yeah the Outback with the 3.6 and high 200's hp won't get nearly the mpg as the 4cyl, but it will pull something like 3500# of trailer, that's a couple of cords of wood and a side-by-side easily.

Hell my little < 200# Baja used to pull a 2500# boat and trailer no problem, and a ton of stone, etc.

And it also had no problem driving hundreds of miles on unplowed roads mid Blizzard coming back from the sky mountains.

Nah, you continue to confuse most people's wants with most people's NEEDS.

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post #44 of 114 Old 01-30-2017, 08:31 AM
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I think its more that because you don't need it you feel your a judge for who does. People don't need a big screen tv either a 25 inch will show the same shows. Don't need a dishwasher because you can wash them by hand. I can go on and on about the stuff you've bought that you could have done without! IF I feel I need a truck or anyone else feels they need a truck who are you to make the guidelines for what constitutes someone who needs one or just buys one to look cool. If I need it once a year and that's good enough justification for me then its nothing you have a right to make a judgement on whether I need it or not. Full sized truck might not be the ideal vehicle for southern California but more people then not think there an ideal vehicle here and id bet seeing that you live pretty far north a good many of your own neighbors dont agree with you. As a matter of fact those sales numbers I posted prove that without a doubt more agree with me then with buying ANY other vechicle in the US.

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post #45 of 114 Old 01-30-2017, 09:29 AM
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I think its more that because you don't need it you feel your a judge for who does. People don't need a big screen tv either a 25 inch will show the same shows. Don't need a dishwasher because you can wash them by hand. I can go on and on about the stuff you've bought that you could have done without! IF I feel I need a truck or anyone else feels they need a truck who are you to make the guidelines for what constitutes someone who needs one or just buys one to look cool. If I need it once a year and that's good enough justification for me then its nothing you have a right to make a judgement on whether I need it or not.
No I'm just admitting that many of MY decisions are made based more on want than need. AND I THINK many people are fooling themselves or justifying it to themselves when they claim otherwise.

Do I have the right to judge?

Silly retort.

It's JUST AN OPINION, it's hardly important.

It's just a discussion, not an over-reaching executive order filled with a host of unintended consequences.


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