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Winter Tires

44K views 180 replies 26 participants last post by  gt3mike 
#1 ·
Winter Tires

Lots of threads around here about AT tires. Lots about MT tires as well. Lots of thread bashing or praising Brand X or Brand Y. Lots of size vs lift height threads, too--so many of those...too many!

Not as much discussion out there about winter tires, and since winter is on its way again, I thought it might be nice to put together a solid thread about winter tires.

I'm going to begin with an winter tire overview, so if you're only interested in a list of recommended tire models, scroll down til you see it, but I would like you to read the whole post if you can.​

First of all: I won't be calling them "snow tires," and I'd ask you not to either. Why? They're not just for snow. A study conducted by the Traffic Injury Research Foundation (http://www.tirf.ca/about/index.html) found that winter tires provide significantly greater traction in ALL conditions whenever temperatures are 7 deg C (~45 deg F) or below (http://tirf.ca/publications/PDF_publications/2012_Winter_Tire_Report_7.pdf). All condtions. If it's 30 degrees outside and the road is completely dry/clean, winter tires are still superior. If it's 40 degrees and raining...winter tires. If you live somewhere that regularly sees temperatures below 45 deg F, you should seriously consider having a set of winter tires to use. I will discuss how this actually ISN'T much more expensive for you in the long run (if at all) to further down the page.

What IS a winter tire? The basics of winter tires consist of soft rubber, lots of siping/kerfs, and commonly directional tread patterns. The reason that other tires (yes, this includes AT and all season tires despite their names) perform so poorly in winter compared to winter tires is primarily due to the rubber compound used. As the rubber gets colder, it gets harder. The soft rubber used to make winter tires keeps them nice and pliable at low temperatures. This soft rubber is also what makes them wear very fast and can also make them dangerous in warm temperatures, so please do not use winter tires year-round (there can be exceptions to this, but not many). Lots of edges to bite with are also extremely helpful. Siping/kerfs are what achieve this, and you'll commonly see winter tires being much more heavily siped than other tires. Zig-zag siping is also extremely common--more surface area to bite with compared to a straight line. While far from mandatory, directional tread patterns are common due to the superiority of directional tread patterns to evacuate water and slush. Heard of hydroplaning? Slushplaning is actually a thing that tire manufacturers concern themselves with when designing winter tires, too.

Below is a comparison between two tires at the top of their respective categories (my opinion). Cooper AT3 representing all terrain and Nokian Hakkapeliitta R2 SUV representing winter.



I would like to point-out that the Mountain/Snowflake symbol does NOT denote a winter tire. It is the severe winter service symbol, but all that means is that the tire attains "110 compared to the ASTM E-1136 Standard Reference Test Tire when using the ASTM F-1805 snow traction test with equivalent percentage loads." That's a fancy way of saying it has at least about 10% better traction than the "average" tire. That standard may have been raised to 20% or some such higher level, but it's still a poor system and misleads and misinforms drivers. Frankly, that's almost as piss-poor as the M+S standard that used to be used which dealt with grooves and voids...basically any tire could be manipulated to be described as adhering to the M+S standard and not necessarily be any better off in mud or snow.

Studs. Oh, studs. Yep, studs are a very common option on winter tires. Studs generally increase ice and hard snow traction. I'm not a fan of studs. Studless tire technology is pretty much to the point where studs are obsolete. Studdable winter tires tend to be better with them, but there are numerous studless tires where studs aren't even an option, have no need for them, and even out-perform studded tires. Studs also have downsides. It isn't uncommon for a tire to suffer reduced dry and wet traction when studded vs no studs. Many states have also restricted or even banned stud use due to the increase in damage inflicted on roads. You can find information about what the laws regarding studs in your state (or other states) are using one of the links below.

http://drivinglaws.aaa.com/laws/studded-tires/
http://www.rma.org/tire-safety/seas...ded-snow-tire-regulations-for-passenger-cars/ (as of 2013)



Some people believe that lowering (or raising) tire pressure will assist in winter traction. This is incorrect. Like every other time of year, you want your tire's tread to make even contact with the ground. Lowering tire pressure will reduce the center tread's contact with the ground and cause increased wear on the shoulders, causing reduced traction and premature tire demise. Raising pressure will cause increased wear in the middle and reduce the shoulders' contact with the ground also reducing traction and causing increased wear on the middle and premature tire demise.

That being said, some manufacturer owner's manuals recommend higher winter tire pressure. Below are some of Tirerack's theories regarding this:
Several vehicle manufacturer's owner's manuals recommend operating winter tires several psi (typically 3-5) higher than their recommended pressures for summer and all-season tires. While none of them actually provide the reason why, there are several scenarios that would support the practice.

First and foremost is that winter tires feature more aggressive tread designs, softer tread compounds and are often molded with deeper beginning tread depths than summer or all-season tires. While the combination of these design elements allows winter tires to remain more pliable in sub-freezing temperatures to provide more traction in snow and on ice, it often results in tires that have somewhat reduced responsiveness to driver input. The 3-5 psi higher recommended inflation pressures increase tire stability and help offset the reduction in responsiveness.

Additionally ambient air temperatures in winter typically range 40- to 50-degrees Fahrenheit colder than typical summer temperatures for the same location. The lower ambient temperatures allow tires to be more efficient at radiating heat and the tires will run cooler, building up less hot tire pressure. In this case, the 3-5 psi higher recommended inflation pressure increase helps offset the reduced hot tire pressures resulting from less heat buildup.

And finally, all tire pressures are intended to be measured cold, which means when the tires are at the same temperature as the air outside. Unfortunately, unless you park your vehicle outside or in an unheated, detached garage, and measure its tire pressures first thing on dark, cold mornings, the influence of attached garages or higher ambient air temperatures later in the day often means that drivers are actually measuring tires that are not completely cold. In this case the 3-5 psi higher recommended inflation pressure increase helps offset the reduced tire pressures associated with the conditions in which the tire pressures are typically measured.
Yes, there are all season and all terrain tires that perform admirably in winter. For the most part, they tend to be the best of the best of their respective categories, and no, they don't hold a candle to the winter performance of a top winter tire. You're simply kidding yourself if you try to convince yourself that your Hankook 727, Cooper STT, Goodyear Silent Armor, Michelin MS2, etc is as good in winter as a good winter tire. There are some tires that do bridge the gap both from the all season/terrain side as well as from the winter side of the gap so well that they're worth mentioning, and I will mention these later when I discuss some of the best and/or most popular winter tire choices.

Most people seem to shy away from winter tires either because they don't think/know they need them OR because they think they can't afford them. We're all Jeepers here. I'm sure the vast majority of us have dropped stupid amounts of money on our rigs just for fun over the years. If you can afford toys for your Jeep, you can afford winter tires. Most winter tires are CHEAPER than their all season/terrain counterparts. Cheaper. Yes, this cost is in addition to the all seasons/terrains that you regularly buy as well, but that only matters the first time you buy winter tires. HUH?!

For simplicity's sake, let's say you spend $400 buying tires every 4 years. $100 per year annual budget. Most winter tires are cheaper, but it's also not uncommon for them to have slightly shorter tread lives, so we'll just say that evens-out and they cost exactly the same to keep this simple. The first time you buy winter tires, you'll spend $400 you otherwise wouldn't have. Well, you'll need wheels to mount them on. Winter is tough on wheels, so don't buy fancy, expensive wheels. Get some cheap steelies or buy some used wheels off of Craigslist or something. Let's say $50 per wheel; depending on your needs/taste, this could be more, or it could be less. We'll also say you're only buying 4 because what good is a full size spare on what has a high probability of being a directional tire (only 50% chance it'll be useful on the side you need it on). So we're up to a$600 buy-in. Yeah, that's not cheap, but how many of us have dropped $600 or more on lifts? Bumpers? Armor, racks, lights, winches, etc? You can also save toward this over a year or two or more if necessary if you want winter tires. You've lived without them til now, you can wait until you've saved enough if you're not made of money.

Once you have a set of winter tires, your long-term tire budget will STILL only be $100 per year. WHAT?! Why not $250 or $200 per year? Well, you only need to buy wheels once, so there's that. Also, when you're driving on your all season/terrains, your winter tires are accumulating 0 miles. When you're on your winters, your AS/T's are accumulating 0 miles. You replace tires when they wear-out, right? Well, they'll last longer time-wise now--you'll still be spending them same amount of money per mile driven on tires, but now you'll have much better and much safer traction in the winter.

Switching? Again, we're Jeepers. It's not much to jack the Jeep up and swap wheels twice a year. You should be rotating your tires anyway, so sync your swap up with a Spring/Fall rotation. Just make sure to keep track of where your tires were when you take them off so that you know where to put them back on such that they'll have been properly rotated. If you really can't do this yourself, there are many shops that will do this very very little cost, and it's not terribly uncommon for a shop to do it for free especially if you're a customer and double especially if it's one of those places that you have a free lifetime rotation perk with.

Storage? I don't have any fancy advice here. If you really don't have room to store 4-5 tires, then you don't have the room, and I suppose you're one of the few people who really can't make winter tires work for them. Since they get stored for months at a time, I suggest you consider asking a friend or relative if they have space to keep them for your before you give up completely however. You only need to access them twice a year after all.

So, what tires do I recommend? Well, there are so many. I can't make a list that will work for everyone, so I'll make a list that will have some use to MOST of us around here. This isn't an exhaustive list. There may be great tires I don't list. There may be models I list that don't come in a size that works for you. I also won't be going in to great detail about the pros and cons of each of these tires. While I will try to order them roughly in order of my preference/recommendation, There are pros and cons. Just like any other tire category, one tire may be better for one person than another person. We can discuss them in detail as the thread progresses. This is just me trying to be helpful, and if you want more personalized assistance, I help many people via PM and would be happy to help you, too.

  • Nokian Hakkapeliitta 7 or 8
  • Nokian Hakkapeliitta R or R2 SUV
  • Nokian Hakkapeliitta LT2
  • Hercules Avalance R G2 (yes, it does look like a Hakka R clone, doesn't it; I promise I didn't accidentally use the wrong photo)
  • Michelin Latitude X-ice Xi2
  • Bridgestone Blizzak DM-V1
  • General Altimax Arctic
  • Continental ExtremeWinterContact
  • Yokohama iceGUARD iG51v
  • Hercules Avalanche X-treme
  • Cooper Discoverer M+S
  • Toyo Observe GSi-5
  • Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice WRT
  • Firestone Winterforce

So, what if you want to use the same tire all year long and want to come as close to the best of both worlds as possible? This is a very short list as far as I'm concerned. These aren't just tires that do "well" in winter. These are the ones that I can personally recognize as living in the large gray area between winter tires and the AS/T's--they have set themselves apart from the rest in regards to winter for one reason or another.
  • Nokian WRG2 or WRG3 (aka WRA2/3, WRD2/3)
  • Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac
  • Cooper Discoverer ATW (this is an estimation; this tire is new and has not proven itself yet)

Honorable mentions (again, these aren't necessarily exhaustive lists; there are so many tires in the world, and I'm just human):
  • Goodyear Silent Armor
  • Kumho AT KL78
  • Kumho AT51
  • General AT2
  • Firestone LE2
  • Hercules AT2
  • Hankook Optimo H727
 
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#2 ·
Dang....bravo. Nice write up. I ran a tire store for a few years so I saw, tested, driven, and surveyed A LOT about tires. With this being said, a winter tire is going to do exactly what is in intended. Which is to give you the best snow and ice traction possible. Like you said, dont expect an All terrain tire to perform like "omg this is the best snow tire ever!!!!!" and certainly dont expect it to perform in icy, slushy, or hard packed conditions... I was a big Toyo salesman so I run them on virtually everything I own. Including their Garrit KX snows on my ladies Civic, their MTs on my Jeep, and their AT2s on my cummins. With that being said, the any Nokian, especially the Hackapallitta line, are hands down the best snow tires ever made. If I didnt get Toyos so cheap I would have put them on the Civic.
 
#3 ·
Thanks. I already noticed some errors that I'll fix when I get home, and I'll probably be adding to it and revising it as time allows. That post took me a long time last night, and that's just where I decided it was done enough to post.

Sent from my phone
 
#4 ·
OP, you stated up front that you would not be exhaustive, and you delivered. A nice, concise write up of limited but useful scope. Apples to apples, with a few oranges for contrast.
 
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#5 ·
I live in a province where winter tires (mountain snowflake) are mandatory from dec 15 to march 15, so I never really "had" to think about this. When I was a student, I was simply using winter tire all year long on my car. That was a stupid thing to do. I would get 2 years out of my tire (did it for 3 set of different brand with the same car and same millage). When I changed that car for another one, it had "summer tire" (that's how we call them around here, but it's really all season tire). Now while the OEM was crap, I did get winter tire (firestone winterforce). Those tire, used on the same type of car, with about the same millage but just winter, lasted 6 years. I changed the OEM crap after 2 year and now am on a better set of all season during summer and they will last at least 6 years.

So if my math are correct, I used to buy 2 sets for 4 years, and now I buy 2 sets for 6 years, assuming I pay 500$ for tire, I save 500$ for 6 years.

I think this is a good writeup mschi, I don't believe it will bring a huge discussion for the people on a Jeep forum but hopefully it will help the lurker that are less into off-road and have Jeep.

I would also like to point out there are different kind of winter tire. Some of them are better for ice, some are better for deep snow, some try to do both. Depending on the area and the type of millage, this is a big factor in a good winter tire for you. Studs is another subject (there are almost no studs around here).

I am in the market for winter tire on my car (after those 6 years...) and after reading this and cumminsjeep24's post I really need to look into the Nokian.

I have a p-rated Cooper Discoverer clone (saxon snowblazer) on my Liberty during winter. It's a solid tire for deep snow that is ok-to-mediocre on ice. It can be studded but I'm not a big fan anyway.
 
#6 ·
I would also like to point out there are different kind of winter tire. Some of them are better for ice, some are better for deep snow, some try to do both. Depending on the area and the type of millage, this is a big factor in a good winter tire for you.
Yep, pros and cons like I said. Some do better on ice. Some handle snow better. Some have less rolling resistance. Some are quieter. Some have better braking. Some have better handling. Some are more affordable. Some have longer tread life. I might expand the post to include that level of detail, but for now, I'd prefer to err on the simpler side of things for this post and help people in greater detail individually on a case-by-case.

I would like to point-out that the Mountain/Snowflake symbol does NOT denote a winter tire. It is the severe winter service symbol, but all that means is that the tire attains "110 compared to the ASTM E-1136 Standard Reference Test Tire when using the ASTM F-1805 snow traction test with equivalent percentage loads." That's a fancy way of saying it has at least about 10% better traction than the "average" tire. Frankly, that's almost as piss-poor as the M+S standard that used to be used which dealt with grooves and voids...basically any tire could be manipulated to be described as adhering to the M+S standard and not necessarily be any better off in mud or snow.
 
#7 ·
Good thread. Good job.

What about Hankook ATM? Wouldn't it be included in the grey area you mentioned?

For a Winter tire for a Jeep, I like Hercules Avalanche Xtreme LT because it's available in several large skinny sizes suitable for Jeeps, IMO. 31 x 10.5 R15C, 245/75R16C, 265/75R16C for example. I'm not aware of other brands of Winter tires in those sizes with C rating.

Hopefully Cooper ATW will eventually offer those sizes.

IMO it's difficult to find Winter tires in tall sizes for Jeeps with lifts or for late model Jeeps that with relatively large tires stock.

If anyone knows of other tall(ish) skinny(ish) Winter tires in sizes suitable for Jeeps, please post them.
 
#8 ·
What about Hankook ATM? Wouldn't it be included in the grey area you mentioned?
Too many complaints about their winter performance dropping/suffering after they've broken in. I certainly don't feel like they perform as well as Duratracs or WR's. Having no personal experience with them I hesitate to even put them in the honorable mention list. I'd rather err on the side of NOT listing tires rather than risk putting something on the list that doesn't deserve it.
 
#15 ·
Load rating will NOT affect traction. Especially in regards to winter tires, select the load rating and tire pressure appropriate for the total weight of your vehicle, passengers, and cargo.

I suggest that discussion of load ratings and their various traits be done in its own thread because there could be a lot to discuss on that topic alone. I see lots of passing discussion of load ratings and a lot of bad information getting passed around. It would be nice to have a well-researched, quality post for people to look to on the subject instead of so much of the blind leading the blind that I've seen.
 
#18 ·
Lots of great info. Too often people fail to consider the benefits of a dedicated winter tire. Jeep wheels are exceedingly cheap and it's possible to keep the spare set in good shape by cleaning them up and keeping them warm/dry/airtight when not in use. Other than the hassle of swapping them out, there's not a significant reason against it.

The tricky thing in some areas is that we used to have delineated seasons, but now it will be 20F one day and 65F or even 70-80F the next. Tough to know which tires to wear and not many people want to change all the time. It's still nice to have a dedicated set around for big snow storms if that happens more than once in a blue moon where you live.

In the WRX/STI world Nokians are also highly regarded with the Blizzak probably coming in second but being the more popular choice. I agree that high-end studless winters seem to perform better than studded tires, plus you have the benefit of being able to drive them on dry pavement if needed.

Great thread
 
#20 ·
All this contact patch is probably interesting in sand or mud or whatever, but on snow covered road (where winter tires are interesting), I have found that skinny tires work WAY better than wide tire.
 
#22 ·
I used to argue about this, but I have come to realize this is correct. Skinny tires present a smaller frontal area to the snow layer as the tire pushes into the snow. I think that is the mechanism that makes them perform better. I'd be interested if anyone has a different theory.
 
#21 ·
I run four Winterforce studded tires on my Mercedes sedan all winter. No problem on dry. Reduction in dry traction is a myth. The studs are so small they represent less than 1/10th of 1% of the contact area. And they do not support the car, they simply dig into the ice.
 
#23 ·
I'm big on running winter tires in the winter. It started when I was driving my car at about 17 or 18. I was going up a step snow covered hill. I was working the clutch and the throttle trying to get up the hill. I had a row of cars behind me and I was hoping I didn't get stuck half way up. Anyway I slowly crawled to the top and borrowed money from my step father to put winter tires on a couple of days later.

I bout a set of used BFG Winter Radials from a tire shop. A guy had them on for a season or a part of one and decided to buy new ones. They were great tire. I loved them.

Since then I have bought time for all my vehicles. I had a manager in the tire shop at work tell me that the Sonoma I bought with new 3 season tires on it would be fine for the first winter. I didn't believe him but thought it would be nice to save the money if he was right. The truck was 2wd and would kick the rear out for no reason and at odd times in the snow. I went and bought a set of winter tires that week and it was unreal. I could stop on step hills and pull away without an issue. She would maintain a straight line on the road. It was well worth the money. Those were a lower end winter tire.

I had about 2 and a half sets of the Avalanche Xtreme's on my 2004 Mazda Tribute. They were a good tire. Brand new they were really nice. One year I was doing snow removal and without the AWD and those tires I wouldn't have made it to work some nights. Unless I was on ice it was hard to stop it. It normally didn't stop till the snow was up to the headlights. And then reverse would fix that.

One night at work we had some really bad weather. Lots of snow then it turned to freezing rain. It was a mess. I had winter tires on the car I had but they were wore in the front and needed to be replaced. So I had my wife come get me in the Tribute. She said the roads were bad but the Tribute was fine. A woman got stuck on a slight incline. She jumped out of the car and started yelling at people to turn around. She said if she can't make it up, no one can. My wife said she drove around her with out spinning a tire.

To me it is well worth the money to buy winter tires. When you figure in the time stuck, possible tow jobs, body damage from hitting snow banks and or cars. I normally get 4 seasons out of a set of winter tires. I have replaced some after 3 seasons just to have that new tire traction back.

After getting rid of the Tribute we had a Corolla for my wife. That was last year. There was no question on if we were getting winter tires. The only question was how much we were spending. I decided I wanted a higher end tire this time. She wanted to save money. In the end it only cost me about $80 more to buy them with rims (at Costco) compared to the cheap ones my wife found. The kids would be in that car so the money was worth it. We ended up with the Bridgestone Blizzaks. I wasn't too happy to not have my AWD last winter but I was really impressed with that little car sitting on those tires. I tried it in some deep snow and it didn't get stuck (I was sure it would so I took a shovel with me). The big issue was the traction control on the car. In the deep stuff it would turn the car into an electric tooth brush. Turn that off and it would move fine. Other then that I would leave it on.

On my Oldsmobile Intrigue I had Dunlop Graspics. Great winter tire. They were not very good in the rain but in the snow they were amazing. And the traction control was much better in the Olds.

Can't remember what brand I used on the Ford Escort and the Acura TL.

Sorry for the long winding post but I'm showing my experience with winter tires.

This will be my first winter with the JK. I bought the Goodyear Duratrac's when I bought the Jeep. I did so because I heard they are good in the snow and just a basic all around good tire. I'm hoping they are. I don't like to play with winter traction. I pass so many stuck or spinning cars on all season tires. I have helped push more then a few. So I'm hoping this are good enough to please me so I don't need to find the money for tires this winter.

My worse tire bill was one year when I needed 3 sets of tires. A set of summer tires on a car to pass mvi (yearly inspection) and then about a month and a half later I needed a set of winters for that car and a set for our truck. Good thing I was making good money then.

Coles Notes version. Winter tires are good. All seasons are bad (in the winter).

James
 
#25 ·
This will be my first winter with the JK. I bought the Goodyear Duratrac's when I bought the Jeep. I did so because I heard they are good in the snow and just a basic all around good tire. I'm hoping they are. I don't like to play with winter traction. I pass so many stuck or spinning cars on all season tires. I have helped push more then a few. So I'm hoping this are good enough to please me so I don't need to find the money for tires this winter.
I am really interested to know how this goes. I keep hearing how good those Duratrac are in snow, but I don't think I've ever heard of someone with your big experience with winter tire compare them.

Great post BTW.
 
#24 ·
I forgot to mention. I don't run studded tires. We can only run them till the end of April I think. Some years we will get a storm or two later then that. Plus for me I haven't felt the need to spend the extra money. I also had years were money was tight and I had to drive all year on the winters. I had to do that twice.

I know some that love studs and others that won't use them the next time.

James
 
#29 ·
As for wide vs skinny tires on Winter roads...

There are several reasons (and several theories) why skinny tires are better.

I think we can all agree that skinny tires are better on Winter roads (whatever the reasons).

I have found them to be somewhat better for forward traction and braking, and a lot better for lateral traction (reduces side slipping or fish tailing).

I could explain my theories about why narrow tires are better on Winter roads, but I think Mshci would probably prefer this thread not go down that rabbit hole.
 
#30 ·
For now I will say that unless you're driving regularly through snow that is bumper deep or deeper, you should want to lean toward narrower tires. I will expand on the wide vs narrow subject in the original post when I have the time.
 
#31 ·
For us we can have 2-4 months. Sometimes it might only be 10 storms in that time if that.

But like mschi772 pointed out, winter tires stay soft in colder temperatures which makes a big difference.

We had a winter not too long ago that was pretty mild as far storms go. But it was really cold. So with that and the joy I get from not looking for a push or a tow make it worth it for me even if it is just one storm.

For one month I might have to think hard on it. Do you get a lot of snow in that month?

James
 
#32 ·
Like I said in the original post, winter tires are superior even if there is NO SNOW. You could have entire winters without snow and I'd still recommend a set of winter tires if winter temps are below 45 for most of that time.

Sent from my phone
 
#36 ·
Oct 1st is the mandatory date in BC to have snow tires on or carry chains. We are starting to watch the snow line drop on the mountain every day.

I drive a plow truck all winter and one thing we do every time we find a vehicle in the ditch is photo the tires. Given most everyone runs winter tires here most vehicles we find in the ditch are not running winter grips.. A testament to how well they work... And a statement about all the nay sayers who claim ATs are just as good.
 
#37 ·
Oct. 1st? Wow that's early. The law here is the mountain snowflake by Dec 15th! Dec 15th is too late, but Oct 1 st seems way early.

Will probably put mine on in 2 weeks. November probably means snow in some language.
 
#41 ·
Highs in the 30's or even lower for SE Wisconsin in the foreseeable future with possible snow. It's not too late to get winter rubber. I just got home from a 2-week business trip and am going to be getting rid of my bald Dean Wildcats ASAP--can't wait to get decent tires.
 
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