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Unread 02-02-2014, 10:35 AM   #1
zeus1gdsm
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treadwright... my size isnt there.. what is next best size?

2001 wj limited... currently running 245/70r16.... based on my research it seems to be the consensus that this is the biggest I can go without trimming on my stock wj....

I like the looks of treadwright... but they don't (currently) have any 245/70r16s listed..

So what would be next best size that will fit stock?

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Unread 02-02-2014, 02:59 PM   #2
mschi772
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Well, if you can't go even a smidge bigger than that (265/70r16 is only about 1" larger; only the Guard Dog available), the next best option from Treadwright is 235/70r16, and the only option in that size is the Puma, so I hope that's the one you want otherwise you will either have to trim/lift or go with someone else for tires.

I really like Treadwright, but they can be quite inaccessible to people using certain sizes especially smaller sizes. I recently emailed the about expanding their selection in smaller sizes, and they told me that they have no intentions/plans to do anything of the sort. They're focused on expanding their bead-to-bead tech to all of their current offerings, and anything else is too expensive for them to do at the moment. I really want to be their customer myself, but they're not letting me and seem to be fairly OK with that. Sad.
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Unread 02-04-2014, 03:00 PM   #3
zeus1gdsm
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have the Tread wrights held up good on daily drivers? Essentially that si what my jeep is.. it mostly gets driven on the weekends, in bad weather and for hunting / camping, fishing... hardly any high way. i was looking at the puma's so thats good info.

Thank you for the response.


Is 265 / 70 r16 fittable under a stock suspension? i can cut out the plastic but i dont want to do any grinding or bumper cut outs.
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Unread 02-04-2014, 03:26 PM   #4
mschi772
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You'd have to ask the WJ guys about tire fitment; I don't know WJ's well enough.

Treadwrights last quite well. Kedge Grip improves traction (especially in wet and snow), but reduces tread life.

Here are a couple quotes of myself engaged in a somewhat argumentative Treadwright discussion that hit on much of what you're interested in. Pay close attention to my second quote where I discuss value and miles per dollar.

The bottom line is that, for many people, the Treadwrights may or may not last as long as some other tires, but they'll still be cheaper (i.e. more miles traveled per dollar spent). My example below compares two MT tires. I have not actually done the math comparing Pumas and a leading new AT tire, but I suspect the value will be similar. I'll probably do the math a little later and post it for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
As learned and budget-wise as you are in so many other areas, I'm surprised you have such a dismissive attitude toward Treadwright (hardly an "off brand" tire or a waste of money). I'm all for telling someone to wait and spend more when the advantage is there, but his/her budget is fine. If he/she doesn't want to exceed $200 per tire and there are numerous good choices within that budget, why push something they don't want? Yes, Treadwrights with Kedge will wear faster, but even Treadwright says that on their site and explains why . Their tires can be purchased without Kedge as well.

From https://www.treadwright.com/t-faq.aspx
Quote:
How long will your tires last?

We use a Full-Grade Truck rubber on all of our tires. This has anywhere from 10-20% natural rubber, leading to a higher mileage, more cut resistant tire. The tires come with a two year limited warranty. Please see the Limited Warranty PDF on this link at https://www.treadwright.com/Warranty.aspx for the full description of our warranty and recommended tire use. The rubber is rated at a 40-50K tread compound. The mud terrain tires will wear faster than the all terrain tires due to the open nature of the tread design.
AT tires typically have tread warranties ranging from 40-60k miles. Treadwright doesn't have tread life warranties (they have uniformity and workmanship warranties), but they do state an expected life of 40-50k. The Goodyear MTRw/K also has no tread life warranty. Treadwright's uniformity warranty is half that of Goodyears (for these two tires we've been discussing)--6 months/first 1/32nd vs 1 year/first 2/32nd. Goodyear's workmanship warranty is 6 yr vs Treadwright's 2 yr. The Guard Dog is considered an MT, so it is expected to have a shorter life than an AT--maybe 30k with Kedge grip to be realistic and possibly conservative.
Quote:
What is the KG or Kedge Grip?

Kedge Grip is a traction additive that we blend into the rubber compound. Kedge Grip consists of a crushed walnut shell and crushed glass particle that works in a two fold manner. As the tire wears down the walnut shell is designed to displace from the rubber leaving a small (1mm) pit or void that provides additional traction edges. The crushed glass is designed to stay in place longer providing additional grit and grip on the surface of the tread.
Quote:
Are there any disadvantages to running tires with Kedge Grip?

Kedge Grip provides additional traction in slippery conditions. It does this by creating small pits on the tread surface with the walnut shell and adding additional grit to the tread with the crushed glass. With the additional open area on the tread the tire will wear about 15-20% faster than a tire without Kedge Grip
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainhop91 View Post
Ahh didn't even notice i did that! And I thought the middle number was the width of the tire? So the even the tire being wider makes it taller?
I explained what the numbers mean in post #10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motorcharge View Post
I'm thrifty in areas that deserve it but your tires are arguably one of the most important parts. You're not going to get quality 33x12.5s for under $200 a tire and I'm not even going to pretend retreads are comparable to a Goodyear. I'm not pushing the MTRs, they're merely my suggestion.
I agree: they're THE most important part. Power, brakes, handling...all that is meaningless if you're not attached to the ground well.

Goodyear isn't special; they're just one of many tire manufacturers. They have some great tires, and they have some flabbergastingly TERRIBLE tires. Retreads comparable to one of Goodyear's better models? Absolutely comparable. Equal? Maybe not, but here's some quick and sloppy math to think out loud with. Let's compare GY MTRw/K to TW GD. Let's say the MTRk goes 40k (more than fair considering this person would be driving them on the street a lot) for $220. Let's say the GD goes 30k for $140. The MTRk will roll about 182 miles per dollar. The GD will roll about 214 miles per dollar. The GD would have to cost 160 per tire OR die after only 25k miles to drop to the MTRk's level. To equal the GD's value, the MTRk would have to last somewhere between 45k and 50k miles or be as cheap as $190 per tire (that might actually be possible).

Is this rough guesstimate of miles per dollar a comprehensive method of measuring one tire's value relative to another? Hell no, but it's a start. Warranty is another factor which I've already shown is in Goodyear's favor in this example. Obviously performance is a huge, messy area where tires must do battle against each other. MTRk has earned a nearly legendary reputation like the MTR before it (which is what the GD is), and I don't hear anyone with the MTRk wishing to have the old MTR back. Definitive? No, but I feel certain saying that the worst case for MTRk is that it is equal to the MTR/GD design while it's more likely it's better (certainly tougher).

Yeah, the GY MTRk almost definitely has numerous advantages over the TW GD, but if none of those advantages are important to a buyer or aren't worth the extra cost, the TW GD has a much better value in both the short term and the long term (unless a $190/tire deal can be found on MTRk).

I'd never recommend a tire I wouldn't trust my own life to. I recommended numerous tires that are the requested size and can be found for $200 or less. Not a single one of which I'd ever dare to suggest is anything but a quality product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelbowtie View Post
As long as you realize that no matter what the tread cap looks like you're still buying a used tire that could have a 5 year old carcass. You don't know the amount of heat cycles it went through or if it was properly inflated or anything. But for a trail rig that's acceptable IMO but not for extended street use.
This is true and always worth keeping in mind. There are reasons I never recommend any other retreading company (there may be other good ones that I simply don't know of, however). TW is quite picky about the carcasses they use which all have to pass a rather rigorous inspection. These days they also apply a new layer rubber from bead to bead on most of their tires. The fresh rubber adds another layer of security to the tire's seal and protects the underlying sidewalls/carcass from physical and chemical deterioration. They also statically pre-balance their tires before they leave the factory. I'm not totally certain of this part, but I do think as part of their quality control their tires are inflated at least once before being shipped out as well.


I'm not pushing Treadwright exclusively. The OP has my recommendations, only one of which is Treadwright. I'm continuing my participation in this discussion because while awareness and concern are always good no matter the product, fear is not. People quickly go from advocating awareness and caution to spreading fear and misinformation when it comes to retreads. Yeah, some--hell, many or even most--are awful and extremely dangerous, but I haven't recommended them, and I hope no one will. Why am I personally not using Treadwright? Aside from me just arbitrarily wanting to give my current tires a try when the time came, I would be using Treadwright on my vehicle if they made a milder AT tire to my liking. Right now their best offering to me is their Warden which is just a BFG AT. Popular tire, I know, but I feel it is overrated, and it is definitely not the appropriate tire for my driving habits/style/condtions. I HAVE driven on Guard Dogs before various times using a friend's YJ (on and off road). To this day he's so happy with them that you'd think he struck gold when he discovered them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
I used to own a set of the original Goodyear MTR. I did not like them.

Regarding Guard Dogs, I don't see how a clone of a bad tire could be good. Then consider it's a retread clone of a bad tread/tire.
Well, if that's how you feel about the original MTR, then, no, it can't be good...for you. However, lots of people like/love them including me, so for us original MTRs are great, and more affordable versions might be even better.

Their chosen AT treads are not to my liking, but if I were running an MT for offroading purposes, it would probably be a no-brainer for me. Their selection in the smaller sizes could be better, too (sad 30" selection and virtually non-existent 235 selection). The Guard Dog is a minimum 31". The Watchman is a Bridgestone Dueler REVO (original) clone--and I'd love to have that--but it is only available in larger sizes.

Retreads are not the devil, and Treadwrights are exceptional retreads. They were exceptional retreads before they had their bead-to-bead rubber tech, and now they're even better. All tires can fail. When a new tire fails, people usually dismiss it more easily as a freak occurence, but when a retread fails, their misconceptions/prejudices lead them to blame the retreading without a second thought. Treadwright's failure rate is comparable to if not better than other "regular" tire manufacturers.

The misconception that retreads are dangerous comes from a variety of factors especially those somewhat unique to the trucking industry. Even in the trucking industry, retreads are not inherently more dangerous than new tires. Source: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres...thesis9309.pdf

Here is the conclusion section of the study. If you have questions/criticisms, they're likely addressed earlier in the study, so I suggest reading through it because it is extremely thorough. I understand that reading scientific papers can be boring if not difficult to the point of impenetrable for many people; I am a scientist and had to learn not only how to read but also how to author this kind of literature years ago, so I'll do my best to answer questions if anyone has them.
Quote:
Misunderstandings by the typical road user have incorrectly attributed the nature, extent, and contributing factors precipitating the formation of the roadside alligator. In clarifying this issue, several tire debris studies conducted since 1990 have sought to determine the probable cause of tire failure and to validate or disprove whether a commercial medium- or wide-base truck tire’s retread status is also a contributing factor. The TDS was one of such studies. Executed during summer 2007, this survey involved the collection of 85,000 pounds of rubber that provided approximately 1,500 truck tire samples for subsequent failure analysis.

The TDS results suggest that the proportions of commercial medium tire debris collected according to adjusted VMT shares may not be significantly overrepresented if localized traffic flow characteristics are taken into account. Indeed, the OE versus retread proportions of the collected tire debris broadly correlated with accepted industry expectations. There was a strong similarity between casings and tire fragments with respect to probable damage/failure cause where the OE/retread status was known. In these cases, road hazard or maintenance/operational reasons were two of the top three probable damage/failure causes. The importance of this result suggests that the majority of tire debris items found on the nation’s highways is not a result of manufacturing/process deficiencies. Indeed, similar findings are corroborated in earlier studies of tire debris that also prove the direct link between deficient tire maintenance and inflation pressures and premature tire failure.

U.S. trucking industry practices have strongly influenced the OE/retread tire mix on the typical 18-wheeler tractor-trailer combination (described in paragraphs #1 (page 9) and #4 (page 10)). Insulation of the driver’s cab from the steer/drive versus trailer axle tires has also contributed to the extent that a failure in any tire may go unnoticed by the driver while the vehicle is in operation (discussed in paragraph #4 (page #10)). These two factors, we believe, suggest that the retread tire fragments tested were not overrepresented in the debris items collected. With respect to the tire and truck fleet industry stakeholders, there is the possibility that the TDS results confirm accepted beliefs. In any given location roadside alligators often represent tire debris from all vehicle types as inadequate tire inflation pressure has the potential to precipitate tire failure for all types of tire (i.e., OE and retread) and not just the commercial medium. However, two primary challenges remain: firstly increasing public awareness about the origins, characteristics, and impacts of tire debris, and, secondly, ensuring adherence to the highest standards in commercial driver truck operations and associated tire maintenance. Resolving these challenges has the potential to see a significant reduction in roadside tire debris, correct the understanding of all highway users regarding the origins of the roadside alligator and sustain the attention of all vehicle operators about the importance of maintaining correct tire inflation pressures.
TRB
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2002-2009 1983 Chevy El Camino
2009-2011 1994 Cadillac Eldorado ETC
2011-Pres 1996 Jeep Cherokee Country
Wheels wanted to buy:
4 or 5 Turbines, old XJ 5-slot,
KJ 17x7.5 6-spoke, or KJ 16x7 5-spoke alloy

Paying ~$50 per wheel--Classified ad HERE
Have 4 (oxidized) Lace and 5 Eccos for potential trade
Biologist
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Unread 02-05-2014, 11:46 AM   #5
zeus1gdsm
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Wow. Thank you for putting all of that together... it definitely sways the concern I had... I didn't think to look at it in a miles per dollar sense.
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Unread 02-05-2014, 12:12 PM   #6
Indy
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A few years ago I ran them on my dd f150 for 2-3 years, i had one come in that wouldnt balance. I wasnt sure which only which axle. They sent me 2 new ones, no charge. That was the old style.

I recently ordered a set of old stle on clearance for my tacoma project, they sent me the new ones instead. Again no charge. Ive oly got a couple hundred miles on them so far. No kedge but they seem to be biting really well on the ice. 4wd has been more of an option than a requirement.
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