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Unread 09-25-2010, 11:40 AM   #1
CB3
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Size Q78 in TSL vs Buckshot MT

I mean TSL vs Gateway Buckshot Mudder in size Q78.

I don't know that I'll ever get either of these, but I am curious.

How do they compare on road, and off road on various surfaces.

I'm interested specifically in Q78 size, which is a 35.5 X 10.8 tire available in 15" and 16" rim versions.

I learned of these when researching old school hardcore offroad tires that were popular on Dodge Power Wagons in 60s, and various other 4x4s in the 60s and 70s.

I think this is the tire size and shape I remember on the hardcore 4x4s and mudders from my grade school days in the 1970s when I lived in the boondocks. I used to see these lifted 4x4s with very tall skinny looking tires. I think this was the size I remember seeing in my youth. Love the size. What are various brands in this size. Are they all bias ply? I assume they are all bias.

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Unread 09-25-2010, 11:43 AM   #2
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I also think this is what my grandpa had on his early 70s International 3/4 ton 4x4. I clearly remember they seemed very tall, like a 35 or taller, and they were about 10.5" to 11" wide. They were not TSL or Buckshot though. They were something that looked like an old school commercial traction tire (like we might call an aggressive hybrid today).

I recall they weren't very noisy on highway for such aggressive tires. Mostly I just heard his stock exhaust.
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Unread 09-25-2010, 11:45 AM   #3
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Any info about TSL and Gateway Buckshot MT in general, and any brand of Q78 size tire would be appreciated.
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Unread 09-25-2010, 02:07 PM   #4
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It's a cool tire size... I remember them being very popular on FJ40s last time I searched for them.

Here's some info via my Google-fu:

Q78 Swampers your thoughts - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board

What size does Q78-15 come out to in real numbers.


Unless it is a primary daily driver, I think the Q78 TSLs would work out pretty well.

Narrower tires seem to be much better mannered in general. My 33x10.50 TSL Radials were pretty awesome for a daily driver even.

The bias ply tires would kinda suck initially ever day due to flat spotting.

Then again I'm daily driving on 40" LTBs so what do I know?
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Unread 09-25-2010, 03:29 PM   #5
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Flatlander: I thought you used to run 34 X 10.5 R15 LTB?

The Q78 is the size I've been looking for: 35" to 36" tall and 10.5" to 11" wide on 15" or 16" rim load C.

In the 70s my grandpa had load E, and I think they were Q78, but that was on his full size International 3/4 ton pickup.

For a 1/4 or 1/2 ton Jeep I'd want load C.
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Unread 09-25-2010, 03:33 PM   #6
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P.S. - I know bias ply are reputed to have a flat spot when you first start driving, especially in cold weather. How much of a problem is that? How long do they take to get round? Would a narrower bias ply get round faster than a wide bias ply of same height and load rating?

I've heard narrow bias ply get rounder faster than wide ones, but not sure if that's true.
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Unread 09-25-2010, 09:17 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB3 View Post
Flatlander: I thought you used to run 34 X 10.5 R15 LTB?

No, I had 33x10.50 TSL Radials. I was strongly looking at 34x10.50 TSLs... and was pretty close to getting them... but then I ended up finding a set of 1 tons at the same time I got my tax return

The Q78 is the size I've been looking for: 35 to 36 and 10.5 wide on 15 or 16" rim load C.

In the 70s my grandpa had load E, and I think they were Q78, but that was on his full size International 3/4 ton pickup.

For a 1/4 or 1/2 ton Jeep I'd want load C.

That's all I've seen Q78s in... load range C.
Here's the bias TSLs in Q78(15in rim):
Super Swamper TSL Bias-RH1

Bias TSL in Q78(16in rim)... this would be a great tire for a Rubicon w/ stock Moabs with wheel spacers... load range C 16" tire...
Super Swamper TSL Bias-RH1

FWIW the load ratings between the 15 and 16 are a 200lb difference... the 15in rim Q78 is rated for about 2700... the 16in version is only rated for about 2500... so maybe the 16in version would ride smoother? I don't know... maybe call Interco about it?

Here are some other interesting tires you may not have thought of:

34x9.0 Bias TSL for a 16" rim:
Super Swamper TSL Bias-RH1

34.9x9.5" Bias TSL for a 15" rim:
Super Swamper TSL Bias-RH1



Quote:
Originally Posted by CB3 View Post
P.S. - I know bias ply are reputed to have a flat spot when you first start driving, especially in cold weather. How much of a problem is that? How long do they take to get round? Would a narrower bias ply get round faster than a wide bias ply of same height and load rating?

I've heard narrow bias ply get rounder faster than wide ones, but not sure if that's true.
For the first week when I started being able to drive my Jeep... it was downright retarded going down the road... basically like driving a paint shaker to work

After that they have smoothed out a lot. They do flat spot overnight, but it doesn't take more than a couple miles for them to get "round" again... at least close to it If I let it sit for a few days at a time then it will be worse and may take a bit longer... if it sits for a week at a time, then it may take as long as 8-10 miles to fully become round again... at that point it's not bad at all... drives like any other tire.

FWIW the LTBs are relatively soft compared to the bias TSLs... and it appears by the specs on 4wheel parts that they come with less tread depth stock... the bias ply TSLs will probably last a bit longer if that matters to you. I've heard 10k to 15k is normal for LTBs... my guess is you could possibly squeeze 20k from a set of bias ply TSLs if you rotate tires religiously.

As far as how long a wider vs narrower bias ply tire takes to iron out the flat spots... I don't know but my guess is that would be true to some extent... narrower tires should have more weight per sq in of tread on the pavement so they should heat up a bit faster.



edit: Are you going to regear before you go to these tires? I can't imagine how terribly stock 4.10s would be with the 42RLE and 35s. 5.13s would definitely be a good idea.
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Unread 09-25-2010, 10:19 PM   #8
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I already had 4.88 with my 33 X 10.5 R15 BFG, and with those tires I was wishing I had 5.13 gears.

So in preperation for a 34 to 35" tire, I'm regearing to 5.38. I hope that's enough, considering how mountainous it is here, and my LJ Rubi moderately armored is a slightly hefty girl.

The 42RLE auto tranny's 0.69 OD is just to high gearing, IMO. It necessitates some really low diff gears. Also, the extreme gas between 3rd and 4th doesn't help either. If I had it to do over again, I'd have bought an LJ with a 5 speed manual tranny ideally, or second choice the 6 speed manual tranny.

I hope 5.38 gears will be enough for 35" tires with the 42RLE auto tranny. I think 5.38 will be marginally acceptable since it's about 2% lower geared than the 4.88 and 33" tires I have now (current setup is marginal on freeway hills/mountains).
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Unread 09-25-2010, 10:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB3 View Post
I already had 4.88 with my 33 X 10.5 R15 BFG, and with those I was wishing I had 5.13 gears.

So in preperation for a 34 to 35" tire, I'm regearing to 5.38. I hope that's enough, considering how mountainous it is here, and my LJ Rubi moderately armored is a slightly hefty girl.
Ah, didn't see the 4.88 in your sig... only saw the axle lines with no mention of ratio there.


Bias ply aren't that bad... remember that is pretty much the only thing that existed up until the late 70s/80s
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Originally Posted by 2006 Sport
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Unread 09-25-2010, 10:28 PM   #10
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BTW - I read that LTB is supposed to be the new improved, second generation TSL biased. Is that correct? If so, what was improved? Which is better on road?

How does a Gateway Buckshot MT compare to a TSL to an LTB on road? On winter roads? On wet roads? Which is most sipeable?

I figure all those are excellent in mud, and the size I'd really like to have. So I figure why research mud performance when they're all great there. What I'd like to know is how are they on road and on winter roads?

I'd prefer whichever Q78 tire is best on road and on winter roads and then I'd sipe center treads and inner half of each outer tread to make it better in those areas.
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Unread 09-25-2010, 10:31 PM   #11
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What are all the brands of 35 X 10.5 to 11 that you can think of? I'd like to know for 15" and 16" rims. I'm not married to my rims. I'd probably rather have 15" rim with the tire though, but nothing set in stone.
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Unread 09-26-2010, 02:10 PM   #12
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Tire size aside, who has experience with Gateway Buckshots and TSL in any size? Even second hand experience like "your buddies 4x4...." is welcome and helpful.

In any given tire size, which of those is less noisy on the road?
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Unread 09-26-2010, 07:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB3 View Post
BTW - I read that LTB is supposed to be the new improved, second generation TSL biased. Is that correct? If so, what was improved? Which is better on road?

How does a Gateway Buckshot MT compare to a TSL to an LTB on road? On winter roads? On wet roads? Which is most sipeable?

I figure all those are excellent in mud, and the size I'd really like to have. So I figure why research mud performance when they're all great there. What I'd like to know is how are they on road and on winter roads?

I'd prefer whichever Q78 tire is best on road and on winter roads and then I'd sipe center treads and inner half of each outer tread to make it better in those areas.

The LTB is basically just a softer TSL but with a little more siping and slightly different lugs. The basic TSL doesn't have much if any siping IIRC, but I may be wrong.

In my experience and based on opinions of others, LTBs are very well mannered aside from the flat spotting. I have 15oz of BBs in each of my 40s, but I've talked to others and some people have run the 40s with no balancing whatsoever, on steel DIY beadlocks with nothing more than a minor shimmy on the highway at very specific speeds.

I've heard the sidewalls are kinda weak, but that was on P4x4 so who knows... but I found a 35x10.50 TSL SSR. It's a radial and is heavily siped, I imagine it will be relatively better in snow and wet weather because of that. An A/T tire is honestly best for that though.

15" Rim = load range C
Super Swamper Radial SSR-RH3

16" Rim = load range D
Super Swamper Radial SSR-RH3

While I'll agree that load range E tires are downright ridiculous for TJs... if you're a bit heavier and need stronger sidewalls, a D rated tire probably wouldn't be downright aweful... especially since it's a radial tire.


I honestly think that the reason nobody else except maybe 2 or 3 manufacturers makes "Q78" size tires anymore is because it's easier to just list the height by width by rim size.

As for why nobody makes skinny tires... what sells better... skinny or wide tires? 33x10.50s look pretty normal to me, but 35x10.50s admittedly look funny. I'm sure they perform damn well, but most idiots that buy tires just to look cool will go for the 35x12.50 to 14.50 wide tires so they can be the coolest kid in the trailer park.

Try calling Interco and find out how many of their 35x12.50 tires are sold vs their Q78 size tires... I'd be willing to be it just doesn't make economic sense to make a tire that will only make 1% of the market happy.

I'd also be willing to bet that a tire that tall and skinny would be more likely to cause some funny handling if you turn quickly at speed... so just drive carefully and you should be fine.

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Quote:
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Unread 09-26-2010, 10:07 PM   #14
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Ya, 35 X 11 look different, but in a cool way, IMO. Retro cool. Tall skinny stuff like that is what the big bad 4x4s ran in the 70s when I was a grade school kid. To me they look normal in an old school way. The fat tires are what looks odd to me, but that's because they didn't exist when I was a kid.

That so called 35 X 10.5 R15 SSR is really not that size. It's a 35 X 11.5 and very heavy. It is siped a little bit, but I don't like its siping because it's not enough siping, and it's siped in places that make it impractical to add more sipes. So I'm not an SSR fan.

The TSL Q78 and Trxus MT 35 are both much lighter than the SSR 35. So there's another reason I'm not an SSR fan.

As far as the handling characteristics of a tall skinny tire, they must be pretty good because 33 X 10.5 R15 is the classic popular size for high speed offroad prerunner racing, and Q78 (35 X 11 R15) Gateway Buckshot Mudders were (until recently) the most popular mud racing tire for high speed mud racing (I read on several Internet sites about mud racing). I've also read many posts at various forums about how well mannered Q78 are on highway, and said to be better mannered on highway than wider tires of similar height.

The 10.5 to 11 wide tires have a lot of highspeed racing heritage. 33 X 10.5 R15 for very highspeed desert racing (way faster than 100 mph offroad a lot of the time), and the Q78 35 X 11 (R15 or R16) for high-speed mud racing (said to be very stable for cornering in mud at speed because tire digs in, and the Gateway Buckshots have 2 center rows of tread for enhanced lateral stability).

So I think tall skinny tires handle and corner better than tall wide tires, as long as the wheel backspacing is appropriate to position the tall skinny tire far enough out, but not to far out. I read that an 8" wide wheel with 4" BS is ideal for Q78 fit, handling, and cornering on a Jeep. My wheels are 15 X 8 with 4.5 BS, which is close enough, IMO.

Another thing about those Q78 I like is that although they are 35 tall on an 8" wide rim, or 35.5" tall on a 7" rim, the Q78 fits perfectly under a 6" fender flare and has full turning radius with no need to change bumpstops.

Really the Q78 is a height most brands call a 36, yet it fits under 6" flares and has full turning radius. Wow!
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