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Unread 07-19-2013, 02:37 AM   #106
ADragg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
Adragg, you just bought your Duratracs a few weeks ago. How much of an expert are you? Were those your first offroad tires ever? It appeared so from your prior posts/threads.

I have been offroading for 35 or 36 years, and I've owned countless sets of highway and all season tires, and at least 8 or 9 sets of off road tires. Several brands of ATs, an MT, and a few that I'd call a hybrid mix of AT and MT. I also did a lot of wheeling with my dad on highway tires (his thing, not mine). I've also done quite a bit of wheeling on all terrain tires, snow tires, many ATs, one MT, and a few hybrid tires.

My dad owned 1 Jeep, I've owned 3 Jeeps, and I wheeled a few other brands of vehicles too.
In addition to the tires I've owned and wheeled, I've read hundreds, if not thousands, of user reviews and professional reviews on tires.
If I'm not an expert, I at least have a few decades more experience than you.

Now stop acting like a bitter, bat poop crazy troll and get the f out of my thread, unless you want to post something that is on topic and constructive about ATs or Duratrac. Attacking me is not on topic nor constructive.

You are welcome to post about ATs, or your Duratracs and tell us how they are doing for you. I welcome on topic, non confrontational posts, if you have any to make. By this time, you've owned your Duratracs long enough to have some experiences to contribute.

Although I personally do not consider the Duratrac to be an AT, that is my opinion, and you are welcome to disagree, if you can be respectful about it, but you've already expressed your opinion on that several times. Please don't beat that dead horse anymore. I'm not beating it anymore. I let that go and don't mention it anymore.

Whether the Duratrac is an AT or not, this is a good thread to tell us about it, if you want to. I told you that a long time ago.

We'd enjoy hearing about your Duratracs, and your experiences will be appreciated and respected if you post in a positive, constructive, on topic manner; but stop firing at me.

If you want yourself and your posts treated with some respect, you have to give some respect.

Be nice or be gone.
I've had the Duratracs for a couple months, something like that. Not much longer than a few weeks. I don't claim to be an expert on them nor any tire, though, and I think that's evident in my posts. I'm not even sure I admitted owning them in this thread, only in other threads. Other than saying that they are have been quiet for me so far, I don't think I've given any first-hand feedback. The things you've posted about the Duratracs and all other tires sound like you have first-handedly compared them and used them, and that's all I take issue with. I'm not saying that because you're not an expert on all of these tires that I AM an expert. I'm also not saying that because you don't have the first hand experience to KNOW something about a given tire that I do have that first-hand experience.

They're not my first off-road tires or A/T tires, no. Over the years I've had an XJ, a ZJ, and my current WJ. I also have friends and family with a lot off-roading experience with different particularly awesome vehicles and tires, but that's just bits of knowledge I take from. I don't know how you KNOW you have several decades more experience than me (this is the kind of bold claims and speculation that I see in a lot of your posts and make me feel like I'm reading something from a biased person or a "know-it-all" - and again, that's what I take issue with), but I'll leave that one alone. I will respectfully say that 35 years ago the only particularly advanced A/T tire option that I know of is the BFG A/T, so maybe it's that any tire that looks more aggressive than the old BFG seems to you like it must be practically an M/T. It's possible that the technology that most of these great new tires revolve around has produced a tire like the Duratrac that is more aggressive and better off-road and in mud than a BFG AT, but also quieter and better mannered on the highway than the BFG.

I personally don't feel like I've been attacking you much and I feel like you have mostly been the one to escalate things and get offensive from being a little too defensive. I admit I'd probably get defensive in your situation. While I have probably been a bit blunt, I think I have mostly tried to be constructive in our debate and at least as respectful as you have been, only taken things as far as you have. I apologize if I'm wrong or if I've come off unnecessarily rude or offensive. I'm fairly sure that if either of us has escalated things, it wasn't just me, though. Regardless, I think "troll" (bitter, bat poop crazy troll - to be exact) is a little harsh, though. From a certain point of view, most of what you're saying I can understand. But I just can't see my posts as coming off as troll-ish. If I'm a troll, I think I must be way too candid and I don't think trolls tend to take the time to make valid arguments and points. Anyway, I think if our continued debate came off as troll-ish or as aimless attacking or anything like that, the mods would have intervened by now. Although it has escalated at times, I think we must be representing our opinions and views respectfully enough and with enough validity, otherwise the mods would have stopped it. And I hope it stays that way because I wouldn't want to see the information and points made in this thread suppressed in any way. But pointless, troll-ish arguing is not what I see it as.

I only say that I have made valid arguments and points in our debates because I know others agree with me. I have had more than one PM from people who agree with me (mostly about your bias/obsession with the Coopers, which at the very least equal my own bias toward the Duratracs). I won't name anyone, because obviously they PM'd me to express support/agreement (at least in certain respects) because they didn't want to get involved in the argument or come off as rude, didn't have the energy, or whatever. By the way, I don't want to come off as rude or attacking, either, as I'm sure you don't as well. I'm usually much more passive, but things escalated. Most nights, I'd ramble on and if I though about the next day, I would wonder why I bothered or took the time to make such an argument, and even felt stupid. But again, I think we have had a fairly valid, fairly respectful debate with points on both sides (even if it has gone further than I'd like).

With all of that said, I'd like to call a truce and I'm fine to agree to disagree. I'm sorry for any disrespect. I have used and love the Duratracs for a small but decent amount of time now, but I don't feel it's been quite long enough nor diverse/extensive enough experience to say much about them. I will say that so far, they live up to the hype and extensive reviews I read about them (remember, I actually had some Cooper ATP on layaway before I changed my mind and had Discount Tire order me Duratracs instead, based on reviews and feedback of the tire). That "hype" was that they're very diverse and possibly the best combination of off-road aggression and DD highway-friendly characteristics - meaning they sit in the middle and extend quite a ways in each direction from off-road traction to well-mannered street tire, just as an A/T is supposed to. But I'm glad to see you're interested to hear about them, as that was what fueled my original argument. I felt they deserved to be compared, contrasted, and reviewed with all of the rest. I felt they had a place in this thread. They do what an A/T is supposed to do in spades. So far, at least.

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Unread 07-19-2013, 02:02 PM   #107
Charley3
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Adragg, thank you for your post.

I did explain much earlier about which tires I owned, friends and repatives owned, and which I had read reviews on, but that's old news now. No use drudging up the past.

I have read some of your posts and threads outside this this. I recall you posting about your Duratracs. I don't remember if I posted in your threads, but I did read many of them. That was where I got the impression that you are new to Jeeps and off road tires. If I was mistaken about that, I apologize.

I've been wheeling for 35 to 36 years (starting when I was 9 or 10). Your profile says you are 24 years old. So I think it's likely I do have more experience than you, but I shouldn't have said that in a demeaning way. I wouldn't have said it at all if things hadn't got unpleasant. I felt personally attacked. So I lashed back. I feel bad about it now because I don't want to be unpleasant, and I don't want to belittle you. I think we've both done that to each other in the past. Let's make a better future by being nice to each other.

You have valuable contributions to make.

I welcome you, or anyone, to post about Duratracs in this thread. That was not my initial position, but I changed my mind about that and posted an invitatation a long time ago. But it's a long thread and it's understandable if it was missed.

A truce sounds good.

---

I hope you will post about your Duratrac tires as you use them and experience them in various conditions.

---

For the record, Duratracs are one of my favorite tires. I have a local friend who has them on his Ford Ranger. He also sells them (and sells Cooper AT3, Hankook ATM, BFG AT, and every other brand except Toyo and Interco).

Although I personally consider Duratrac more aggressive than an AT (my opinion, you don't have to share it), that doesn't mean I don't like Duratrac. I recommended Duratrac to one of my cousins for his pickup. If I ever need a tire more agressive than Cooper AT3 or the Hercules family of ATs (cousins of Cooper), the Duratrac would be my choice.

The Cooper AT3, a couple of the Hercules ATs (one similar to Cooper AT3, and one similar to Cooper ATP), and Hankook ATM are my favorite options that I consider medium aggressive. The Duratrac is my favorite option that I consider more aggressive.

Although Duratrac is more aggressive than I personally need, I do like Duratrac, and I recommend it to people who need a tire more aggressive than main-stream ATs.

So I do hold Duratrac in high regard.

---

Anyway, a truce sounds good. Please do share about your Duratracs, if you want to. I won't criticize you. I'll just appreciate your contributions.
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Unread 07-19-2013, 02:23 PM   #108
mschi772
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On a semi-related note, I may be getting new tires before my Kumhos wear out because I'm hoping to get my hands on some KJ wheels. I have two styles in mind, and they'll either be 16" or 17". Considering how little I've been needing to go off road, I might switch to some Pirelli Scorpion Verde all season touring tires. If I stick to AT, I've been thinking about trying the Toyo AT2s. I really love these Kumhos though; they seem like a perfect match for my driving, but I love trying different tires.
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Unread 07-19-2013, 02:30 PM   #109
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
On a semi-related note, I may be getting new tires before my Kumhos wear out because I'm hoping to get my hands on some KJ wheels. I have two styles in mind, and they'll either be 16" or 17". Considering how little I've been needing to go off road, I might switch to some Pirelli Scorpion Verde all season touring tires. If I stick to AT, I've been thinking about trying the Toyo AT2s. I really love these Kumhos though; they seem like a perfect match for my driving, but I love trying different tires.
May I make a couple suggestions? If not, stop reading here. (joking)

If you keep running small tires (30s or smaller) the 15 x 7 stock aluminum wheels are the best, IMO.

If you really want to go to a larger diameter wheel, I suggest 16 x 7 stock aluminum wheels because they are still good for off road, if you ever want to. I'm buying some used Icons so I can someday run 245/75R16C Cooper AT3, or maybe one of the Hercules ATs.

If you get a 17" wheel, you will have limited your future options, IMO. I don't think 17" wouod be good off road. I don't think they'd be as good on road either.

That's my opinion of course, but I think most XJ guys at JF would agree.

It's your Jeep of course. So do what you want. I'm just giving my opinions.
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Unread 07-19-2013, 02:54 PM   #110
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I am starting a Jeep build, and new projects at work, and having health problems, all at the same time.

I am anticipating a difficult next 3 to 5 weeks. So I might not be around forum as much. Please carry on this thread.

Thanks and best wishes to everyone.
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Unread 07-19-2013, 06:41 PM   #111
mschi772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
May I make a couple suggestions? If not, stop reading here. (joking)

If you keep running small tires (30s or smaller) the 15 x 7 stock aluminum wheels are the best, IMO.

If you really want to go to a larger diameter wheel, I suggest 16 x 7 stock aluminum wheels because they are still good for off road, if you ever want to. I'm buying some used Icons so I can someday run 245/75R16C Cooper AT3, or maybe one of the Hercules ATs.

If you get a 17" wheel, you will have limited your future options, IMO. I don't think 17" wouod be good off road. I don't think they'd be as good on road either.

That's my opinion of course, but I think most XJ guys at JF would agree.

It's your Jeep of course. So do what you want. I'm just giving my opinions.
I don't go offroad much these days, and anywhere I do isn't very extreme and is merely a means to an end--I don't go wheeling for the sake of wheeling. 17" tire options are actually far more common and sometimes cheaper than 16". Many many crossovers, trucks, and SUVs are using 17" or even 18" wheels these days. 15" will always be around, but as far as stock wheels on new vehicles go, it's fading into the past.

A 2-3" lift is in my future as well, so I won't still be using stock diameter tires. I'll be going up to 30" or 31" overall diameter, and 17" will actually be very good on road. The resulting lower profile of the tire (same diameter but compared to a 15 or 16) will really improve street handling.

I'd LOVE a set of 15" XJ turbine wheels, but they're hard to find. There's a 5-spoke 16" KJ wheel I like a lot, and a 17" 6-spoke KJ wheel that I also really like. I've considered refinishing my 15" lace wheels because I like them just fine, and I like to give some love to the "underdogs" (everyone seems to hate the laces), but I dread the pain it would be to sand them down properly--so many tight spaces and nooks and, oh my, the crannies! so many crannies.

Lace wheels
Turbines
KJ 16"
KJ 17"
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Wheels wanted to buy:
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KJ 17x7.5 6-spoke, or KJ 16x7 5-spoke alloy

Paying ~$50 per wheel--Classified ad HERE
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Unread 07-19-2013, 11:56 PM   #112
Charley3
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I don' want to stir up any arguments over terminology, but I would like to show that I didn't just make up the term "hybrid".

Here is an example of 4wheeloffroad.com using the term "hybrid" to describe tires with tread between AT & MT.

http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techart..._buyers_guide/

If you go to Cooper's website and read their info for Cooper ST and ST Maxx you will see that Cooper uses the term "hybrid". The also use it to describe some other tires too.

If you do a Google search of Jeepforum you'll find that a few years ago the term "hybrid" was commonly used.

I didn't invent the term "hybrid" tire. But if you (any of you) prefer the term "aggressive AT", that's fine too.

Goodyear and some others use the term aggressive AT to refer to the same type tires.

Use whatever term you prefer. The important thing is that we know what each other means.
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Unread 07-20-2013, 12:01 AM   #113
Charley3
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That KJ 16 wheel is good looking. I want some.

What are it's specs?

Is it 16 x 7 ?

What BS?

What bolt pattern?
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Unread 07-20-2013, 12:35 AM   #114
ADragg
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Charley,

I remember what you were saying about friends and family, etc, who have had different tires and vehicles. That was kind of what I was getting at - I too have friends and family who have lot of experience have owned some pretty cool vehicles with different tires. So I was just saying I've taken away some knowledge in that way, too, aside from the limited first hand knowledge I have.

I forgot that my age was posted in my profile, so I guess you were making a fair assumption lol. There may be an age gap between us, but I think we're probably a lot a like in certain ways and are at least both strong-minded (or maybe stubborn is a better way to put it) and that's probably why things went back and forth and got unpleasant. So I think we can forgive each other for that. Also, please keep in mind that I normally spend time on this forum at night, at the end of the day when I often need to blow of steam. My life is a lot of work and stressful architecture education and getting on the forums at the end of the day is supposed to be a way to relax and enjoy myself but it can easily turn into a place where I start blowing off steam, if I let it.

Anyway, glad to call a truce.

Oh, and I've obviously only been driving for a little less than 10 years now but I've always been into off-road toys. I always had quads (four-wheelers) growing up and raced motocross for a while as well. I helped my dad pick out a 96 ZJ for my mom in 96 and back in '03 I literally picked my mom's next car, an 03 WJ Limited, out for her off the showroom floor. She literally let me decide what her next Jeep would be. Then when I was 15 or 16, I got a 2001 XJ that I lifted myself and bought some Yokahama Geolandar A/T's for (an old version of that tire, which was much more aggressive than the current version, and a really good A/T IMO). I had a ZJ for a while and a few years ago my mom finally sold her 03 WJ to me when she bought one of the brand new WK2 Grand Cherokees. I love this current WJ because I actually picked it out from the dealership and it's been in my mom's possession since it was new. I always knew it would be mine eventually!

Just thought I'd share that. I don't have nearly as much experience as you, but I have been into off-road stuff since I was pretty young I think I will always be a Jeep guy. Here's the 2001 XJ that I build up a little from stock:

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Unread 07-20-2013, 12:45 AM   #115
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mschi,

I like that 5 spoke KJ wheel a lot. Still, even a 17" wheel should ride pretty well, especially with 30 or 31 inch tires, end especially if you get some Bilstein's with those OME springs. I have OME/Bilstein's on my WJ and the ride is outstanding. The ride was never rough due to the wheels even when the suspension was stock and it was on 17" stock wheels with ~28.5" tires, though. However, that was with P-rated tires. I think 17 is a good size, but 16 looks really good on XJ's to me, and 5-spokes are just totally "Jeep", to me. Your XJ is really nice and clean looking and with a slight lift and bigger tires with those 5-spokes, it would look amazing. I would go with those Toyo's, but you know I like more aggressive tires I was pretty torn between the Duras and Toyo's and probably would have gone with the Toyo's if they made a C-rated version in my size. It was either the less aggressive P-rated or an E-rated that might have ridden rough and weighed 5 lbs more than the Duratracs. The fact that the Toyo AT2's have less aggressive tread in the P-rated offerings might be a good middle-ground for you.
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Unread 07-20-2013, 07:11 AM   #116
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The 5-spoke KJ wheel shown above is, I'm pretty sure, 16x7 with 5.5" backspacing. The 6-spoker is, pretty sure, 17x7.5 and 5.5" backspacing. The 6-spokes can be found on many later KJ Limiteds (and maybe Renegades?). Not really sure if there's a pattern to which KJs got those 5-spokes.

I've seen XJ guys mount KJ wheels just fine--no problems with the slightly deeper backspacing. That said, I still MIGHT slap on some very thin hub-centric spacers just to widen the stance of my XJ a hair anyway. I'd like to have my lift before I switch wheels because the bigger wheels will look better with bigger tires, but I really need to get some minor rust repair done before I can even think of affording the lift. The lift installation is also a bit intimidating to me given my lack of time, tools, and likely VERY stuck bolts. I need to get a Jeeper friend around here to hang-out with and help each other on stuff like this.
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KJ 17x7.5 6-spoke, or KJ 16x7 5-spoke alloy

Paying ~$50 per wheel--Classified ad HERE
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Unread 07-21-2013, 01:27 AM   #117
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I was going to ask more 16" KJ wheel questions, but I don't want to continue to be off topic.

So I'll just send a PM.
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Unread 07-24-2013, 06:58 AM   #118
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I don't know the current quality of Goodyear tires because I learned to hate them years ago. We used to run them on ambulances because the rescue squad could purchase Goodyear's off of the state contract for less than comparable tires. They were unmitigated junk. They were square to start with, needed pounds of lead to balance and didn't wear well. The worst issue was the cupping and tread separation that would occur in the first 10K miles. There were no suspension problems, they weren't overloaded and the tire pressure was correct - they were just junk. Eventually we just stopped buying Goodyear and paid regular price for other brands off the shelf. We saved money even at the higher initial prices and had far fewer tire issues.
Occasionally I would "inherit" a set of Goodyear's on a personal vehicle when I purchased it. They ALL turned out to be junk as well and were replaced quickly. The only arena that I've seen Goodyear's excel in is use on police cars. The Goodyear Eagle's soft tread compound is a desirable quality when dry traction is paramount to tread life. When one replaces tires often the other failings become less important.
Now, to be fair, I haven't used Goodyear's in many years. Their prices are sometimes competitive but I'm not willing to try them again.
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Unread 07-24-2013, 08:16 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HCallahan View Post
I don't know the current quality of Goodyear tires because I learned to hate them years ago. We used to run them on ambulances because the rescue squad could purchase Goodyear's off of the state contract for less than comparable tires. They were unmitigated junk. They were square to start with, needed pounds of lead to balance and didn't wear well. The worst issue was the cupping and tread separation that would occur in the first 10K miles. There were no suspension problems, they weren't overloaded and the tire pressure was correct - they were just junk. Eventually we just stopped buying Goodyear and paid regular price for other brands off the shelf. We saved money even at the higher initial prices and had far fewer tire issues.
Occasionally I would "inherit" a set of Goodyear's on a personal vehicle when I purchased it. They ALL turned out to be junk as well and were replaced quickly. The only arena that I've seen Goodyear's excel in is use on police cars. The Goodyear Eagle's soft tread compound is a desirable quality when dry traction is paramount to tread life. When one replaces tires often the other failings become less important.
Now, to be fair, I haven't used Goodyear's in many years. Their prices are sometimes competitive but I'm not willing to try them again.


Refer to post #94 in this thread.
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Unread 07-24-2013, 09:36 AM   #120
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I've read a magazine review on the Cooper STT that stated it was more of an AT than MT. I need a good 3-ply for southern Arizona where roads are rocky with loose sandy dirt. This is my DD. So far, I've run GSA, BFG AT, and MT MTZ 31" tires. Thanks!
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