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Unread 02-08-2014, 12:31 AM   #661
Charley3
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P.S. - i should have mentioned that the (mix of) wet deep snow, wet packed snow, glare ice, and wet ice were on rural mountain roads that are steep with tight curves. As challenging as it gets. Then consider that I didn't air down becsuse I wanted to test the limits of the tires (AT3 & IPike).

Any nonstudded tire would struggle with that. So perhaps it's nothing against the Cooper AT3 that it struggled and slipped. So did the Ipikes, though the Ipikes struggled less.

I've had BFG AT in those same conditions (not aired down) and they struggled too, but were a bit better than AT3, but not as good as Ipike.

I theorize the Hercules AT2 would be a bit better than AT3 or BFG AT based on Herc AT2 reviews by Canadians and its many sipes.

I'm going to air down my Cooper AT3 by 5 psi and try them again tomorrow.

From now on Winter testing of any tire will be done aired down an appropriate amount. It'd still be a challenging enough test, and a lot safer.

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Unread 02-08-2014, 06:50 AM   #662
mschi772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
I never used the word "official". You used that word.

Ipikes aren't anything like Blizzaks. Different type tire with a slightly different purpose.

Blizzaks offer better Winter traction than Ipikes, but Blizzaks only last 15K to 20K miles when used only in Winter. Blizzaks are for Winter only.

Ipikes don't offer quite as good Winter traction as a dedicated Winter only tire like Blizzak, but Ipikes last 40K miles (if unstudded) used year round.

Different type tire. My tire store explained this to me. Seems to be correct. I have 15K year round miles on my Ipikes and they still look new. Try that with a Blizzak.
I know I used that word--it was me describing that you've made it sound quite quite official with your descriptions. Didn't say you claim it IS official.

I see--harder rubber compound. Many of the "better" winter tires use very soft rubber or, in the case of Blizzaks for sure, use a compound that is even kind of "spongy." Way better in the cold temperatures in wintery stuff, but disintegrates in warm temps. 40k is pretty darned good for a winter tire even in winter only; 40k with summer use is extremely long-lived.

It hadn't really occurred to me that there would be winter tires out there with a compound that hard. If the tires could be good enough with a harder compound and the car they're for isn't used too often and/or is used mostly in the winter then choosing the harder tires and using them exclusively would be quite economic. I think I'll stick to swapping to soft tires for winter, but I can respect your strategy especially given your physical limitations and your vehicular diversity (XJ + Park Ave to choose from).


I haven't gotten much chance to use our (work) Cooper AT3's this winter, but a co-worker has them on his Taco and has said that while he's quite satisfied with them, he does feel like he has to use 4wd more than he should; take that for what little it's worth, I suppose. I haven't gotten a ton of use out of the Herc AT2's, but some--so far they seem better than my Kumhos and as good as I'd ever ask for out of a non-winter tire (bear in mind that I have 225 Kumhos under and XJ while the Hercs are like 275's or something like that under an F150). Unfortunately most of my winter work driving has been in a F250 with BFG Commercials (yuck!) or a Silverado with Firestone LE2 in the front and some worn Cooper ATR in the back--I loathe that someone at my company does 2-at-a-time tire changes especially on our 4wd trucks.
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Unread 02-08-2014, 10:07 AM   #663
KKiowaTJ
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I see where you are coming from, Wet + wet = white knuckle. I found a road like that, But I like to lurch, Stop and hammer down to feel grip etc. I never air down for road use. I just hit neutral and coast with slight braking, Even in stop and go and be in and out of drive.

That's why I go log time in bad weather, More seat time and reaction time so I know where to go and whats needed for each tire. I too like to know the 'fails' of the tires I run, It does suck when it looks the part, Sounds the part, But when you get out there you are in the wrong part.

Its snowing here again too, Fun! Not really the snow, But the people who think they 'need' that extra item and go 25mph and bottle up a road. That's where I love my GGat2's, Ill pass a line of people in 2wd going 55mph, They are that forgiving and very controllable to me IMO.
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Unread 02-08-2014, 02:32 PM   #664
Charley3
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Hmm. I never got to try my GGAT2 n Winter roads. I wish I'd had that opportunity.

Some people knock interlocking tread for clogging up easily in mud or snow.

IME with BFG AT they did clog easily. That's bad on mud, but what about snow?

Is clogging with snow bad? According to a tire manufacturer website (forgot which) a tire clogging with snow increases snow traction because snow has more traction on snow than rubber does. I don't know if that is correct, but I do know my BFG AT clogged with snow and had good traction on snow. Their ice traction was marginal though.
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Unread 02-08-2014, 02:37 PM   #665
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I'm going to air down for Winter tests from now on because I'm to old to enjoy white knuckle near death experiences like I did when I was younger.

There's nothing like a glare ice covered steep windy mountain road to put the fear of God in you. I had experiences yesterday when I didn't know whether to pray or swear.

I think I'll also stick to more level areas for future testing.
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Unread 02-08-2014, 02:49 PM   #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
I know I used that word--it was me describing that you've made it sound quite quite official with your descriptions. Didn't say you claim it IS official.

I see--harder rubber compound. Many of the "better" winter tires use very soft rubber or, in the case of Blizzaks for sure, use a compound that is even kind of "spongy." Way better in the cold temperatures in wintery stuff, but disintegrates in warm temps. 40k is pretty darned good for a winter tire even in winter only; 40k with summer use is extremely long-lived.

It hadn't really occurred to me that there would be winter tires out there with a compound that hard. If the tires could be good enough with a harder compound and the car they're for isn't used too often and/or is used mostly in the winter then choosing the harder tires and using them exclusively would be quite economic. I think I'll stick to swapping to soft tires for winter, but I can respect your strategy especially given your physical limitations and your vehicular diversity (XJ + Park Ave to choose from).

I haven't gotten much chance to use our (work) Cooper AT3's this winter, but a co-worker has them on his Taco and has said that while he's quite satisfied with them, he does feel like he has to use 4wd more than he should; take that for what little it's worth, I suppose. I haven't gotten a ton of use out of the Herc AT2's, but some--so far they seem better than my Kumhos and as good as I'd ever ask for out of a non-winter tire (bear in mind that I have 225 Kumhos under and XJ while the Hercs are like 275's or something like that under an F150). Unfortunately most of my winter work driving has been in a F250 with BFG Commercials (yuck!) or a Silverado with Firestone LE2 in the front and some worn Cooper ATR in the back--I loathe that someone at my company does 2-at-a-time tire changes especially on our 4wd trucks.
There are plenty of people use Hankook Ipike, Cooper MS, Mastercraft MSR, and Hercules Avalanche for year round use. Why? Because they can and it's economical and convenient. These Winter tires can be studded for Winter only use, or unstudded for year round use. They last 40K to 45K miles when used year round. I got that info initially from my tire store, and confirmed it at multiple forums about Winter tires.

Their snow traction is good with or without studs. Their ice traction is good with studs, marginal without studs (if not aired down). To get decent ice traction without studs they must be aired down at least 5 psi. I learned they need airing down by hard experience and testing. But without studs they can be used year round. I got that info from my tire store and multiple forums.

Blizzaks (and other traditional soft dedicated-Winter-only tires) are for Winter only and don't last very long. They only last 15K to 20K, according to multiple forums. The good thing about Blizzaks (and other Winter only) is they offer superior ice traction compared to year round use Winter tires without studs. But a Blizzak (or any Winter only) won't hold up to Summer use.
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Unread 02-08-2014, 03:14 PM   #667
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BTW - Any of those Winter tires that can be used year round without studs and last 40K to 40K can also be studded.

When studded, they are for Winter only use and ice traction is quite good (without needing to air down). This is a lot more economical than a Blizzak (or other very soft rubber) because those harder tires last 2 to 3 times longer.
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Unread 02-08-2014, 03:41 PM   #668
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Without sipes, the harder Winter tires are good for year round use and are IMO a class midway between a tradtional Winter-only tire and a Winter rated AT.

One reason I like Ipike year round is it's as close to an AT as I can get for my Buick. It has much thicker tread and better puncture resistance to gravel roads than any passenger all season tire. I drive on a lot of gravel roads. One reason I chose Ipike is they are (according to Rally forums) sometimes used for Rally racing tires on gravel roads. So tough enough for gravel and good handling on gravel.

I think any of the harder Winter tires (Cooper MS, Mastercraft MSR, Hercules Avalanche, and others) would be as good on gravel as Ipike. These are as close to AT as is available in most passenger car sizes.

I also like them well enough for mud, Winter roads (if aired down for ice), and highway year round that I'm considering putting one of them on my Jeep in future.

They probably aren't tough enough for rock crawling, but I don't do that anyway. I've had the Ipikes on plenty of sharp rock roads and they're holding up great. Still look new after 15K miles.
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Unread 02-08-2014, 05:50 PM   #669
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Interlocking tread patters always clog, The design on how to dispense it is the key. BFG ko's I had did fine until 12-14/32's. That's when they filled up like slicks and wouldn't eject anything to grab traction.

That why m/t tires have a wide void, To spin clean and grab traction. Helps in the rain too IMO with bigger channels to clean the water, Or at least the tire I ran 9/10 time did, MTZ.

Way I look at it anymore, If you need minor mud and more street, Get a X geared tire and buy a cheap winch and plate. If a smittybilt at $250-$300 dollars saves you once, It paid for itself. Plus any tire is mud capable, You can avoid most of it and more so in a jeep.

That's where if you are going to wheel, get a m/t radial and winch. Weekend warrior, Same! Once a month, That's when you weigh traction options, Street vs off road. If you can tolerate and or want a m/t run them. If you want both, There is no real 'both', Cable will be pulled or the radio will be a little louder on the DD commute.
Two sets would be the best bet and you wont have to buy for a few years if you run one through two seasons and vice versa. There are no bad choices except the jeeps not going the direction the tires are turned and the trail not getting the point you are going down regardless lol.
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Unread 02-08-2014, 07:01 PM   #670
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I still want a mythical do it all tire. I thought Cooper AT3 was it based on pavement and mud performance, but its snow performance was only OK for me, and ots ice performance was inadequate IMO.

So now I'm thinking I can't have it all in one tire. So I am now prioritizing pavement and Winter. Mud is less important to me. I think Hankook ATM, Hercules AT2, and those year round use Winter tires all fit that for me.

However, the Hankook ATM rides firmer than those other options. So I'll probably go for one of those other options.
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Unread 02-08-2014, 07:27 PM   #671
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Originally Posted by KKiowaTJ View Post
Interlocking tread patters always clog, The design on how to dispense it is the key. BFG ko's I had did fine until 12-14/32's. That's when they filled up like slicks and wouldn't eject anything to grab traction.

That why m/t tires have a wide void, To spin clean and grab traction. Helps in the rain too IMO with bigger channels to clean the water, Or at least the tire I ran 9/10 time did, MTZ.

Way I look at it anymore, If you need minor mud and more street, Get a X geared tire and buy a cheap winch and plate. If a smittybilt at $250-$300 dollars saves you once, It paid for itself. Plus any tire is mud capable, You can avoid most of it and more so in a jeep.

That's where if you are going to wheel, get a m/t radial and winch. Weekend warrior, Same! Once a month, That's when you weigh traction options, Street vs off road. If you can tolerate and or want a m/t run them. If you want both, There is no real 'both', Cable will be pulled or the radio will be a little louder on the DD commute.
Two sets would be the best bet and you wont have to buy for a few years if you run one through two seasons and vice versa. There are no bad choices except the jeeps not going the direction the tires are turned and the trail not getting the point you are going down regardless lol.
I agree, if the GAT2s get me stuck on a muddy woods trail, I'll go to a mud tire on a different set of wheels.
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Unread 02-09-2014, 04:58 AM   #672
sjc115
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Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
I still want a mythical do it all tire...
What about the Cooper St Maxx, GY Duratrac, Cepek Fun Country? Are those supposed to be a hybrids AT/MT? Do you think they would do what you wanted?
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Unread 02-09-2014, 07:02 PM   #673
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What about the Cooper St Maxx, GY Duratrac, Cepek Fun Country? Are those supposed to be a hybrids AT/MT? Do you think they would do what you wanted?
Good thoughts, but I don't think so. I don't think they'd be as good on ice as a highly siped AT (like Hankook ATM or Hercules AT2), I'm sure they wouldn't be quite as good on highway as an AT, and certainly not as fuel efficient as an AT.

I think my best bet is Hankook ATM or Hercules AT2 (lots of sipes) or one of the Winter tires (even more sipes) with hard enough tread for year round use (when not studded).
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Unread 02-10-2014, 01:04 PM   #674
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Enough about my tire needs. This thread isn't just supposed to be about my needs. It's also about other people's tire needs.

So please continue discussing tires here according to your interests and needs.
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Unread 02-10-2014, 01:41 PM   #675
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huge fan of the BFG at. They are an attractive and very good in all kinds of weather. Have them on our plow trucks and i think we should have gotten something that did not get so much traction with the front end trouble we are having. Only HUGE downside is the price. Michelin is very proud of their BFG but if you don't like the price i have heard good things about the courser and the dynatrac AT as well. Love the looks of the toyo and the cooper xeon but no reviews. Anyone want to help out on this one?
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