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Unread 06-05-2013, 05:02 PM   #46
Charley3
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I sometimes recommend Duratrac (when I think it's appropriate).

I recommended Duratrac to my cousin. My cousin has tried ATs and MTs on his 4x4 work truck. He owns a logging and saw-milling company.

He drives long distances on highway to jobs. Sometimes 2 hours each way. When he arrives a the job(s), he drives on sharp rocks logging roads, wet fields, wet trails, and off road in mud. He also lives in mountains and during Winter must drive on snow and ice both on and off road.

He doesn't like ATs because he was often getting stuck in mud when off road. He doesn't like MTs because he says they are slick on Winter roads, and bad gas mileage.

I thinks he might like Cooper AT3, Hankook ATM, or Toyo AT2. He's never tried those because they are new. I think he'd probably like Cooper AT3 since it's known to be good in mud (for an AT), and we've both been impressed with my Cooper AT3 on hard wet slick mud. (I haven't tried AT3 in deep mud yet)

However, he's jaded with trying ATs or MTs. He wants something in between that meets all his traction needs and is more civilized on highway than a MT.

I recommended he try Duratrac, or Mastercraft Courser CT, because I consider them to be hybrid tires (part AT, part MT). I figure a hybrid (aka commercial traction) tire would be the best all around for his needs.

So he talked to my local tire store where they sell Duratrac, Mastercraft CT, Cooper AT3, Hankook ATM, and everything else (except Firestone and Toyo).

The tire store owner told us they are aggressive commercial traction tires.The Duratrac would ride nicer (softer), but that's not a priority to my cousin. The Duratrac would have better traction on Winter roads. He likes that. The Mastercraft CT has the tougher sidewalls. They'd have approx equal traction off road. The Mastercraft CT has a lower price and lasts a very long time.

Of those two, I'd prefer Duratrac for better ride quality and Winter traction. My cousin like the Duratrac's better Winter traction, but he also likes the Mastercraft CT's lower price, tougher sidewalls, and long life. He is still undecided. If it was me, I'd get Duratrac for this application.

However, I wouldn't put Duratracs on my XJ because I don't do enough mudding to need them, and the Cooper AT3 are good enough for my little bit of mud needs, and the Cooper AT3 are (IMO) more civilized on highway.

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Unread 06-05-2013, 05:48 PM   #47
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJfunrun View Post
I just joined this forum. I want to thank you all for the lively discussion about tires. I understand the issues involving semantics and labeling by tire manufacturers and companies that rate products--even jeepers themselves! I've been looking very closely at the Duratracs, and I'm thankful for all the pros and cons that were passed around in the discussion. I would love to see a tire made that handles all circumstances and driving situations -- tough sidewall and aggressive enough tread pattern to handle offload driving, including a bit of rock crawling, and at the same time, ride smooth and quiet on the road and handle well in wet situations. For me and my TJ and my driving needs the Duratrac probably is the best choice. I have BFG AT's on now (31x10.50x15) and while they're tough as nails and great on the road, they get pretty squirrelly on slick surfaces in the winter, especially as they wear. I've run Toyo's on pickups for years and I love them, but I fear their weight will effect mpg. So unless anyone has the miracle solution for someone like me who runs a basically stock TJ, then I thank you very much for putting all that information and opinion out there for people like me. Can't be too informed about major purchases.
I think an AT would be better on road, Duratrac better off road, but all best ATs and Duratrac are good all around all purpose tires. IMO

Did you see the tug of war between BFG AT and Cooper AT3 in mud and slushy snow? The Cooper AT3 is way better in mud than BFG AT. My personal experiences show the same. I have owned BFG AT and Cooper AT3 both in 30 x 9.5 R15 on stock XJs. The Cooper AT3 is defineatley a lot better in/on mud that BFG AT.

I don't know if Cooper AT3 has enough mud ability for your needs, but it certainly beats BFG AT in mud. I'm sure Duratrac has more mud ability than any AT, but there are trade offs for that on road.

I am not going to suggest what is best tire for you. I suggest that (IMO) it's either Hankook ATM, Toyo AT2, Cooper AT3, or Duratrac. Consider your on and off road needs and choose the balance you want. Then choose your tire.
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Unread 06-05-2013, 06:01 PM   #48
Charley3
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ADragg:

You posted in another thread that you just purchased your Duratracs. So how familiar with them are you? I think you are caught up in the euphoria of having just purchased new tires, and you are feeling an emotional need to aggressively defend and promote them to assure yourself that you made the right buying decision.

What I said about Duratrac is NOT all speculation. I have talked at length with local people (interviewed them) who personally use Duratrac and sell them, and they also sell most brands of ATs, including Hankook ATM, Cooper AT3, BFG AT, Silent Armor, Hercules, Nokian, Kelly, Dunlop, General, and most other brands of ATs, MTs, and commercial traction tires (hybrids).

They have shared their first hand experiences with me. Their info is unbiased because they use and sell Duratrac and many competing brands.

Their first hand experiences are valid, and unlike you, they are unbiased because they sell most major brands (and several minor brands), and they personally use many of these tires on their trucks. They aren't married to one tire. Their ego isn't wrapped up in defending one tire.

---

I think I read in an earlier post you saying Duratrac is the only snow flake rated AT.

There are so many snow flake rated AT that there are to many to list here.

---

Tire Rack and Consumer Reports didn't omit Duratrac from their reviews. They include Duratrac in their Commercial Traction category reviews, NOT in their AT category reviews. FYI - Duratrac is the top rated commercial traction tire at both websites. I posted that twice before, but you refused to acknowledge that.

---

You're really self righteous and fired up over nothing. Call the Duratrac whatever you want. Categorize it however you want. Love it all you want. It's your opinion and that it fine, but you can have and state your opinion without attacking or belittling others' opinions.

Duratrac is a good tire, but your personal experiences are not more valid than the local Duratrac users I interviewed, including some who use and sell it. These people have years of experience using and selling Duratrac. You just bought yours. Who do you think knows more about Duratrac, guys who've run and sold it for years, or a guy who just bought his?

Why would people who personally use and sell Duratrac tell me most ATs are better on road than Duratrac? Because that is their experience. Most brands of ATs they sell cost less than Duratrac. So they are losing money telling me about their experiences, but they are good guys who want to sell the best tire for the specific customer's needs, even if it costs less. For my cousin, they recommended Duratrac because he needs more mud ability and doesn't care as much about on road as I do.

Don't get upset over tire terminology at a forum. We aren't worth it.

Classify and describe Duratrac however you want. I have my opinion and will do as I want. If you guys all agree on how it should be classified, I'll be a team player and call it whatever you guys want, and classify it however you want. However, I doubt you'll come to agreement with each other because its classification is a grey area, which is exactly why you should have some tolerance for other opinions on the subject.

---

Enjoy your new Duratracs you recently purchased. You made a good choice for your needs. Be happy. Go in peace.
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Unread 06-05-2013, 08:27 PM   #49
Charley3
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P.S. - for ADragg about tire pressure.

Since you just purchased new Duratracs, I'll point this out. Tire stores usually substantially over-inflate new tires they just mounted. If you are driving on over-inflated Duratracs, they probably are as quiet as AT running at proper tire pressure. If your Duratrac's are over inflated, they are running mostly on the AT-like center treads with the MT-like outer treads mostly not touching the ground.

Do a chalk test to determine proper tire pressure, or use the tire pressure formula (I prefer the classic formula + 6% to 8% extra) to determine the proper tire inflation so you can get a reasonably flat contact patch and still have good handling on road. Then you'll have good tread wear, traction, and best possible combination of soft ride and good cornering ability.

With a proper tire pressure, your outer lugs will be touching the ground. Then you'll hear the true amount of noise the tire makes. This is true of any tire.
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Unread 06-05-2013, 09:34 PM   #50
jimk403
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We had Duratracs. Bought them because everywhere I read on internet forums people said they were great tires for everything.
Well, don't believe everything posted on the internet.
The factory Rubicon BFGs were better in heavy rain and the snow we get here in SoCal. They were pretty good in the desert type dry terrain we have most of the year. Also did well in light mud, but never had them in the deep dark mud of the east.
I did not like the fact that they needed re-balancing about every 15k. Wife hated the noise they made so much she almost sold the JK, and they got noisier (alot more) as they wore.
Never did have issues with the supposedly weak sidewalls so thats a positive thing I guess. Oh, and they lasted 55k miles.
Now we have Toyo AT2s, and after several thousand miles they are better in every way so far...
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Unread 06-06-2013, 03:37 AM   #51
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimk403 View Post
We had Duratracs. Bought them because everywhere I read on internet forums people said they were great tires for everything.
Well, don't believe everything posted on the internet.
The factory Rubicon BFGs were better in heavy rain and the snow we get here in SoCal. They were pretty good in the desert type dry terrain we have most of the year. Also did well in light mud, but never had them in the deep dark mud of the east.
I did not like the fact that they needed re-balancing about every 15k. Wife hated the noise they made so much she almost sold the JK, and they got noisier (alot more) as they wore.
Never did have issues with the supposedly weak sidewalls so thats a positive thing I guess. Oh, and they lasted 55k miles.
Now we have Toyo AT2s, and after several thousand miles they are better in every way so far...
What I posted about Duratracs was based mostly on second hand info from asking questions of Duratrac users in my local area. I think they gave me good info since they have used them for a long time, and one of these guys uses and sells it, along with most brands of ATs, MTs, and (dare I say) hybrids. I have also read a few professional reviews of Duratrac, and many amateur user reviews. So I know a lot of second hand info about Duratrac. I wasn't "just speculating" about Duratrac.

It's nice to have your post that mentions your first hand experiences using Duratrac for thousands of miles.
I have nothing against Duratracs. I think they are a great tire for people who want a combination of AT and MT (or a hybrid of the two), but it's not fully an AT, and I don't believe anyone who says it's as quiet as a quiet AT because I have been told (by local Duratrac users and a seller) that it's noisier than a typical AT (and my common sense agrees - look at the MT-like outer lugs! Duh!). I think the problem with Duratrac is they are misrepresented (by Goodyear and some enthusiast posters) as being an AT. Then based on that, unsuspecting people who want an AT buy Duratrac expecting AT noise levels and gas mileage, which is impossible. That is exactly what my local tire store owner (who has Duratracs on his pickup and sells Duratrac) was warning me about. He didn't want me buying Duratracs and then complaining about noise and gas mileage. That is why he suggested an AT would be better for me. He considers Duratrac to be a great commercial traction tire, but NOT and AT. So his opinion and advice are in agreement with Tire Rack and Consumer Reports who classify it as Commercial Traction (and rate it the best commercial traction tire, though that is debatable since Mastercraft CT is a great commercial traction tire).

Local Duratrac users had no complaints about it, but they did tell me it's not an AT, and if I wanted AT road manners, quietness, and gas mileage (low rolling resistance) to get a true AT.
I appreciate you posting about your 1st hand experiences with Toyo Open Country AT2. I'd like to hear more. Please post about performance on various off road terrains, Winter roads, wet and dry highway, noise, gas mileage (rolling resistance), what tire pressure you run, etc. Also, which version of Toyo AT2 do you have? The P, LT, or Xtreme? What size tires and wheels do you have? Approx how heavy is your Jeep? Stock or built?

There is a shortage of professional reviews about Toyo Open Country AT2, and I don't know a single local user of it. You are the ONLY online person I've heard from who uses it. It's such a new tire that good first hand or even second hand info is hard to find, and professional reviews-tests are very rare.

The only things I know about it are from one professional review at a truck forum, what Toyo's website says, and what my tire experience and common sense tells me (tells me it's probably good). I'd like to know more about your first hand experiences with Toyo AT2.

Thanks!

===

P.S. - the reason I didn't include Toyo AT2 in the AT rankings is because it's to new and (at this time) there is a lack of info about it, and it wasn't tested, reviewed, or ranked by Tire Rack or Consumer Reports because it's to new. I am reasonably confident it's one of the best ATs, but that is only speculation. This is why we'd love to hear more from you about Toyo AT2.
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Unread 06-07-2013, 01:28 AM   #52
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So far, only my wife has driven them in the rain, she likes them. Who knows when we'll get mud, but when we do, I (or she) will hit it. Snow is still 6-8 months away, but will post up with how they perform.
The Toyos are 35x12.50-17, Extreme, running 33 psi. Mounted on 17x7.5 Moab wheels on a '09 Rubicon Unlimited. When I get an opportunity, I will weigh it and add our family of 5 to give the normal running weight. Gas mileage is up to around 19 hwy, were as with the Duratracs it was 16-17.
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Unread 06-07-2013, 07:53 AM   #53
silvanus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
There is a 32 x 10.5 R16 load C for you. See below.

You could run 265/75R16 load C on 16 x 8 with 5" BS. Duratrac and Mastercraft CT are available in load C in that size. I consider then to be between AT & MT.

Also, I'm sure there are several brands of ATs available in that size too. For example, Cooper AT3 is available in that size in load C (and in load E).
Thanks Charley,

I've done quite a few of the tire spec charts, and for me it's not cost effective to jump up to 16" wheels! So I'll shooting an 30.7 ( Toyo AT ) or a true 31" 15" tire.

Now if they made an LT265/85R15 ( 31.7ish OD by 9.? )I'd be inclined to purchase five of that size for sure!
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Unread 06-07-2013, 04:54 PM   #54
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvanus View Post
Thanks Charley,

I've done quite a few of the tire spec charts, and for me it's not cost effective to jump up to 16" wheels! So I'll shooting an 30.7 ( Toyo AT ) or a true 31" 15" tire.

Now if they made an LT265/85R15 ( 31.7ish OD by 9.? )I'd be inclined to purchase five of that size for sure!
245/75R16 tires are 30.5 x 9.5 R16 (same height as what is called a 31). I like this size a lot because it would be fairly easy to fit, is light weight (weighs approx same as a 30 x 9.5 R15), and the 9.5 width would be ideal on Winter roads and give good gas mileage (if regeared appropriately). The only increase in weight is the 16 x 7 wheel.

For example, with Cooper AT3, the 245/75R15 load C weighs 1 lb less than 30 x 9.5 R15. A 16 x 7 wheel weighs approx 5 lbs more than a 15 x 7. So your net increase of rotating mass is only 4 lbs per tire/wheel, and I don't think there is any increase in rolling resistance because it's still a 9.5 wide tire with same an aspect ratio of 75.

Just make sure you get load P or C, but NOT D or E.

Gearing is the issue. With 30" tires 3.55 gears are OK, and 3.73 are ideal, IMO. With 31" tires you'd want 3.73 or 4.1 (probably 3.73).

Regearing makes it expensive to go taller than 30" tires, but if money not a problem, I think 245/75R16 load P or C are awesome. I prefer load C because tough enough, but still rides good enough and gets decent gas mileage (unlike D or E).

Regearing is a lot more expensive than wheels. So if you are worried about money, stick with 30s because no 16" wheels or regearing needed. 30s make the best DD on a budget, IMO. 245/75R16 make best DD when you have the money to get 16" wheels and regear.

If you do get 16" wheels, I recommend Jeep stock Icon wheels (16x7 with 5.25 BS).

In my case, I am going to regear diffs to 3.73 for my 30s because I drive in mountains a lot. That same gearing will work if I later upgrade to Icon wheels and 245/75R16 tires.
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Unread 06-07-2013, 05:09 PM   #55
Charley3
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P.S. - 245/75R16 tires are available in passenger P rated, and load C rated from some tire brands, and I think are always offered in load E.

You want P or C. I'd go with C.

Cooper AT3, Toyo AT2, and Duratrac are available in 245/75R15 load C, and I think also in P.
Probably many other brands-models too.

Load E are available in all brands, but I advise against using load D or E on a light SUV.
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Unread 06-07-2013, 05:17 PM   #56
Charley3
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For those interested in 30 x 9.5R15, see this thread. It includes a list of all brands-models available.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f15/l...zj-tj-1523888/

I'm going to start a thread about 245/75R16 tires (30.5 x 9.5 R16) (when I have time). It will include a list of all brands-models available in P and load C.

For those interested in 33 x 10.5 R15 see this thread. It includes a list of all brands-models available.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f15/l...tires-1533186/

I might also start a thread about 255/85R16 (32.7 to 32.8 x 10 R16) when I have time. For now, I'll just say that the load D tires might be attractive for Unlimited LJ and JK, and Grand Cherokees, and other heavier Jeeps. This size tire is available in load D and E.

For those wanting to compare narrow vs skinny tires, see this thread.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f15/w...tires-1531973/
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Unread 06-09-2013, 06:27 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
245/75R16 tires are 30.5 x 9.5 R16 (same height as what is called a 31). I like this size a lot because it would be fairly easy to fit, is light weight (weighs approx same as a 30 x 9.5 R15), and the 9.5 width would be ideal on Winter roads and give good gas mileage (if regeared appropriately). The only increase in weight is the 16 x 7 wheel.

For example, with Cooper AT3, the 245/75R15 load C weighs 1 lb less than 30 x 9.5 R15. A 16 x 7 wheel weighs approx 5 lbs more than a 15 x 7. So your net increase of rotating mass is only 4 lbs per tire/wheel, and I don't think there is any increase in rolling resistance because it's still a 9.5 wide tire with same an aspect ratio of 75.

Just make sure you get load P or C, but NOT D or E.

Gearing is the issue. With 30" tires 3.55 gears are OK, and 3.73 are ideal, IMO. With 31" tires you'd want 3.73 or 4.1 (probably 3.73).

Regearing makes it expensive to go taller than 30" tires, but if money not a problem, I think 245/75R16 load P or C are awesome. I prefer load C because tough enough, but still rides good enough and gets decent gas mileage (unlike D or E).

Regearing is a lot more expensive than wheels. So if you are worried about money, stick with 30s because no 16" wheels or regearing needed. 30s make the best DD on a budget, IMO. 245/75R16 make best DD when you have the money to get 16" wheels and regear.

If you do get 16" wheels, I recommend Jeep stock Icon wheels (16x7 with 5.25 BS).

In my case, I am going to regear diffs to 3.73 for my 30s because I drive in mountains a lot. That same gearing will work if I later upgrade to Icon wheels and 245/75R16 tires.
Thanks Charley!

I've already re-geared to 4.88's, so that's not an issue. I'm keeping my 15x7's ( YJ Sahara 90's era, love'em ) I just like that look and size. I still have a year or so left on the KM 2 33's, so I'll be doing a lot of mulling over what design ( IE Hybrid ) will work for me!

I'm getting in to overlanding and need a tire that I can get through out N. America.

Fun stuff though, I look forward to reading your posts and info.

Carlo
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Unread 06-09-2013, 10:50 AM   #58
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So many times we see advice geared towards some extreme that we forget that most of us are just looking for a good all around tire. Sometimes you have to spend money to get quality but often you just end up paying for a name. Tires are one of those things that you can save money on and still get a good product. This thread goes a long way to help achieve that goal. I had a set of 10ply rated BCT tires (some type of economy brand made in China) on a 3/4ton Dodge Cummins that were cheaper and far better that the Firestones they replaced. I got the BCT's out of necessity when I destroyed two tires on a Saturday morning and they were the only thing available. They turned out to be good tires. I'm currently running a set of General AT2's on a TJ and they seem to be good tires as well and far cheaper than the run of the mill BF Goodrich AT's. It's helpful to read what others have learned.
Thanks Charley, good info.
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Unread 06-09-2013, 04:20 PM   #59
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvanus View Post
Thanks Charley!

I've already re-geared to 4.88's, so that's not an issue. I'm keeping my 15x7's ( YJ Sahara 90's era, love'em ) I just like that look and size. I still have a year or so left on the KM 2 33's, so I'll be doing a lot of mulling over what design ( IE Hybrid ) will work for me!

I'm getting in to overlanding and need a tire that I can get through out N. America.

Fun stuff though, I look forward to reading your posts and info.

Carlo
Since you have 15 x 7 wheels, and are geared to 4.88, and like 9.5" and 10.5" wide tires, I'd recommend a 30 x 9.5 R15 that runs tall for a 30, or a 31 x 10.5 R15.

That affects tire choices, and also the fact that you want an over land setup that is good on and off road, and intend to drive a lot of on and off road.

I have some recommendations based on tires I am somewhat familiar with, but there might be additional good choices that I don't know about.

A 30 x 9.5 R15 load C that runs tall for a 30 would be a choice, IMO. Typical 30 x 9.5 R15 tires run 30.5" tall (according to manufacturer claims).
General Grabber AT2 runs 29.8" tall, which is tall for a 30. I had the Grabber AT2 and they were noticeably taller and wider than a typical 30. Looked like a half size larger than a typical 30. Hankook Dynapro MT runs 29.7" tall. The Hankook MT has less aggressive MT treads that I think would make a great hybrid tire, if you add sipes to center treads.
A 31 x 10.5 R15 would probably be a better choice since you are geared to 4.88 and want to keep your stock 15 x 7 wheels. I suggest finding a 31 that runs tall.
Trxus 31 x 10.5 R15 run about 1/2 taller than most brands of 31. It is a true 31" tall (manufacturer claims). I've compared Trxus MT side by side with BFG AT IRL and the Trxus was 1/2" taller. The only concern I'd have would be tire life. I've heard from some people they don't last very many miles. I've heard from others that they last fine. I don't know how many miles. For traction they are really good and center treads have lots of sipes. I think of them as the most aggressive hybrid ever made. Not sure how they'd be on highway because I've heard from people who say they are fine, and others who say they aren't to great on highway. So I don't know about that.

Hankook Dynapro MT 31s run tall for a 31. They are 30.7" (manufacturer claims).
I'm sure there are also other 31s that run tall.

Duratrac or Mastercraft Courser CT 31 x 10.5 R15 would be a good hybrid for you, but they don't run tall.
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Unread 06-09-2013, 06:58 PM   #60
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HCallahan View Post
So many times we see advice geared towards some extreme that we forget that most of us are just looking for a good all around tire. Sometimes you have to spend money to get quality but often you just end up paying for a name. Tires are one of those things that you can save money on and still get a good product. This thread goes a long way to help achieve that goal. I had a set of 10ply rated BCT tires (some type of economy brand made in China) on a 3/4ton Dodge Cummins that were cheaper and far better that the Firestones they replaced. I got the BCT's out of necessity when I destroyed two tires on a Saturday morning and they were the only thing available. They turned out to be good tires. I'm currently running a set of General AT2's on a TJ and they seem to be good tires as well and far cheaper than the run of the mill BF Goodrich AT's. It's helpful to read what others have learned.
Thanks Charley, good info.
I agree. I don't want extremes. I want practical for everyday needs.

I want a daily driver tire with good to excellent year round highway performance as 1st priority, Winter road traction as 2nd priority, ride quality (soft ride) as 3rd priority, decent (or better) off road performance as 4th priority, and tire life as 5th priority.
Cost is not an issue to me, but it is for some. For value priced greatness, you can't beat Cooper AT3 and Kumho Road Venture SAT KL61.
I started this thread to help others find their combination of priorities they want. I found my ideal tire in Cooper AT3, but there are other tires that could fit the same priorities. Hankook ATM and Toyo AT2 would also fit my priorities, but Cooper AT3 rides the softest and that is important for my bad back.

There are some tires that place even higher priority on highway performance (and less off road) that are great tires. Kumho Road Venture SAT KL61 comes to mind. Widely reviewed as being great on road, and OK off road. Perfect for someone who drives mostly on road, and a great price too. The same can be said of Michelin LTX AT2, which is great on road, very good on Winter roads, and OK off road, but Michelin is expensive. IMO, these two tires have all season tread with AT toughness. They are kind of a crossbreed between AS and AT. IMO

Personally, I prefer a little more off road ability than Kumho SAT or Michelin LTX AT2 offer, and that's why I prefer Cooper AT3, Hankook ATM, and Toyo AT2 - they are better off road and still good on road. IMO

BFG AT is also good for my priorities, but is expensive, and these other tires do the same job as well or better for less money. IMO.

I have owned some of the tires reviewed (BFG AT, General Grabber AT2, Cooper AT3). I researched all the tires as thoroughly as I could. For anyone who'd criticize me for reviewing tires I haven't owned, let me point out the obvious. No one person has owned all the tires. If tire threads were restricted to only people who have owned them, then it would be impossible to review and compare them all in one thread. The only way to review, compare, and rank many tires is to rely on a combination of personal first hand experience when possible, second hand user experience when possible (interviewing people who've owned them. and reading user reviews), and second hand experience from professional tire reviewers (4x4 magazines, truck magazines, Consumer Reports, etc). That's as good as anyone can do for comparing and ranking all major brands and some minor brands of AT. If anyone has made a better thread comparing all major brands and some minor brands of AT, please post a link to it.
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Warning: Sometimes I edit a post a few times to get it how I want it.
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