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Unread 12-16-2013, 11:03 PM   #466
Charley3
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Originally Posted by Shock96 View Post
One quick point about Hercules that I found out Friday. They are their own company, not a subsidiary of Cooper like Mastercraft. They have their own molds and carcasses and their own plants. Cooper does make some tires for them, but not all and they don't share technology. That is what the folks at Hercules told me when I asked about the R/S.
OK. I assume whomever you talked to knew their facts about the RS and told you truthfully.

Cooper does make Hercules AT2 and I'm pretty sure it shares the Cooper AT3 carcass. They are exact same dimensions in the sizes I've looked at. For example, size 30 x 9.5 R15 is 29.3 tall in both tires. Size 31 is 30.2 tall in both tires, and so forth for other sizes. Likewise Mastercraft AXT also matches height per size exactly and we know it shares same carcass as Cooper AT3.

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Unread 12-16-2013, 11:11 PM   #467
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I would have to guess they were telling the truth about it. They were pretty quick to point out that info. I will ask the Cooper engineer this week. I have a conf call with them.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 01:38 AM   #468
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I would have to guess they were telling the truth about it. They were pretty quick to point out that info. I will ask the Cooper engineer this week. I have a conf call with them.
I'm not saying the Hercules person was untruthful, but if they don't want certain info out, then Cooper won't give that info out either.

I guess take them at their word, or don't, but also read between the lines. Perhaps they can't say certain info because they aren't allowed.

I find it suspicious that the Cooper AT3, Mastercraft AXT, and Dick Cepek Trail Country are all known to share the same carcass and in size 30 x 9.5 R15 are each 29.3" tall, and the Hercules AT2 size 30 x 9.5 R15 is made by Cooper and is also 29.3" tall. Coincidence?

Then look at those tires in size 31 x 10.5 R15 and they are all 30.2" tall. Coincidence?

It the same with all sizes. Exactly same height to a tenth of an inch.

Looks to me like they're sharing same carcass as Cooper AT3 and it's subsidiary relatives. Why else would the Herc AT2 tire have exactly the same oddball height(s) as the Cooper AT3 and the Cooper subsidiary tires (Mastercraft, Dick Cepek) in all the various sizes. It's not just those two sizes. It's all the sizes I looked at. Same with 245/75R16, 265/75R16, and all the others I looked at.

We know Cooper manufactures the Hercules AT2. We know they are exactly the same height to the tenth of an inch for the various sizes, and those are not standard heights for 30" and 31" tires. Other unrelated companies/manufacturers of ATs in 30 and 31 have other heights.

To me it appears likely that Hercules AT2 shares same carcass as Cooper AT3, Mastercraft AXT, and Dick Cepek Trail Country.

Draw your own conclusions.

In any case, I think Hercules and Cooper are both good companies making good products.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 06:15 AM   #469
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Our opinions of General Grabber AT2 are in agreement, except I have more confidence in them for snow and ice than you do, and their rough ride bothers me more than you (I have a bad back). They're the roughest riding ATs I've ever driven on. They feel to me like a Commercial Traction or MT. That rougher ride might be OK for some, but I sure don't like it.

By contrast, my Cooper AT3 ride exceptionally soft for a load C AT. I've heard Hercules AT2 rides as nice as Coop AT3 and they share same carcass.

So you've been driving Cooper AT3 and Hercules AT2? Huh. Good to know. What do you like better about Hercules AT2 on road? Please be specific.

I'm sure Herc AT2 is better on packed snow and ice because it has twice as many sipes as Coop AT3. But I doubt there'd be a difference in deep snow. What type snow were you referring to?

My Cooper AT3 are really good in mud for ATs. I have driven slightly uphill in 4" deep gooy mud in 2wd with open diff without spinning. My BFG AT in 2wd open diff used to get stuck driving slightly uphill in 1" deep gooey mud. My Grabber AT2 in 2wd open diff didn't get stuck in 1" mud going slightly uphill, but they did spin and slip a little.

I have no experience with Hercules AT2 in mud. I speculate it wouldn't be a good as Cooper AT3. I base that on Herc AT2 having smaller voids. So we're both speculating same for Herc AT2 and mud.
Herc feels as if it has better traction/handling on the road. Very minor difference which may also be confounded beyond certainty by the differences between the two trucks, but it is how I've felt. The snow I've been through has been 6 or less inches of fresher snow on and off road as well as a couple inches of snow/slush on the streets. In my world, snow isn't "deep" until it's hitting an axle tube or something else beyond just wheel/tire, and I have not been in anything even close to "deep" snow.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 12:09 PM   #470
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No one is saying the Generals aren't good, but they're based on a concept (interlocking tread blocks) that is becoming obsolete in most areas outside of dry and/or rocky areas. That doesn't mean they're BAD in other conditions, but newer technologies and designs ARE better.
Three weeks ago I was driving around at speeds up to 45 mph in 6-8" of snow and ice on untreated, hilly county roads and hwys with NO slipping or drama on those obsolete interlocking tread blocks. I comfortably went wherever I needed to go, safely.

No, the Grabber AT2s are not BAD in other conditions, they are EXCELLENT, and if the newer tread designs are better, it would have been imperceptible to me. This reminds me of the newer, better, high technology oil filters which filter out particles so small they wouldn't cause engine damage anyway.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 12:10 PM   #471
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Or you could try something that equals any of those plus has a serious tread pattern and only weighs 39.39 lbs -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-NEW-LT31X1...0121d0&vxp=mtr

I dunno, I think I'd have to rate/gauge this tire (Grabber AT 2) on par with others when looking at all the same categories. 5 rows of tread blocks(but interlocking?), solid amount of sipes, good amount of void, tread depth of 16, all of these seem right on par with others. It does get a snowflake rating if that means something to ya.


What is very interesting and thank you for pointing it out, is that they are def the lightest tire of all the 30x9.5s I've seen. What is being compromised to get them lighter? Granted it's only a lb or 2 when compared to others of same size, but they are a wee bit larger. Makes me fell I could pull off some 31"s


Not sure it's the right tire for me despite the fact I live in a Rky-Mtn state. I do more snow driving than rocky trail rides. Also, if they are dropping weight on their neighbors how are they more suited for dry/rocks? Is the interlocking tread blocks a sign of a better rock tire?

This thread rules, thanks to all those who have contributed. I'd like more reviews on all tires mentioned in this thread.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 12:15 PM   #472
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Three weeks ago I was driving around at speeds up to 45 mph in 6-8" of snow and ice on untreated, hilly county roads and hwys with NO slipping or drama on those obsolete interlocking tread blocks. I comfortably went wherever I needed to go, safely.

Right on, so they perform admirably in the snow, thus earning that snowflake rating.

Just when I was certain on which direction I'm going with my next set of skins, you cats start entering doubts. Cheers for that.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 12:27 PM   #473
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Not sure it's the right tire for me despite the fact I live in a Rky-Mtn state. I do more snow driving than rocky trail rides. Also, if they are dropping weight on their neighbors how are they more suited for dry/rocks? Is the interlocking tread blocks a sign of a better rock tire?
I don't do that kind of stuff, but in a previous post above, Charley says the Generals are at their best on rocky trails, and are tough as nails.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 12:29 PM   #474
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Herc feels as if it has better traction/handling on the road. Very minor difference which may also be confounded beyond certainty by the differences between the two trucks, but it is how I've felt. The snow I've been through has been 6 or less inches of fresher snow on and off road as well as a couple inches of snow/slush on the streets. In my world, snow isn't "deep" until it's hitting an axle tube or something else beyond just wheel/tire, and I have not been in anything even close to "deep" snow.
Huh. You may have just talked me into Hercules AT2 for my next tires. I was already considering them, but you just helped me make up my mind.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 12:32 PM   #475
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One more thing that hasn't been discussed - the Grabber AT2s are round, stay round, and for me have taken little weight to balance, and they stay balanced. I've had no irregular tread wear, flats, or sidewall damage either.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 12:46 PM   #476
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Originally Posted by JPGoody View Post
I dunno, I think I'd have to rate/gauge this tire (Grabber AT 2) on par with others when looking at all the same categories. 5 rows of tread blocks(but interlocking?), solid amount of sipes, good amount of void, tread depth of 16, all of these seem right on par with others. It does get a snowflake rating if that means something to ya.

What is very interesting and thank you for pointing it out, is that they are def the lightest tire of all the 30x9.5s I've seen. What is being compromised to get them lighter? Granted it's only a lb or 2 when compared to others of same size, but they are a wee bit larger. Makes me fell I could pull off some 31"s

Not sure it's the right tire for me despite the fact I live in a Rky-Mtn state. I do more snow driving than rocky trail rides. Also, if they are dropping weight on their neighbors how are they more suited for dry/rocks? Is the interlocking tread blocks a sign of a better rock tire?

This thread rules, thanks to all those who have contributed. I'd like more reviews on all tires mentioned in this thread.
I really liked my Grabber AT2 30 x 9.5 R15 tires, except for the stiff ride. The ride quality is my complaint with them.

Otherwise a great tire.

If you have a healthy spine, their ride might be OK for you.

Mschi said their tread is obsolete. I don't think interlocking tread is obsolete. I think it's not ideal for mud, which is why BFG AT clogs so easily in mud IME. However, the Grabber AT2 has little ridges between treadblocks that improve self cleaning.

Interlocking tread tires (BFG AT, Grabber AT2, Definity Dakota AT, Procomp AT) are a design made for desert (rocks, sand) and so they excel at rocks and sand. For some reason, they also do well on snow IME. I know Mschi doesn't think they're good on snow, but many people think they are and most interlocking tread tires are snow flake rated. Ky BFG AT were good on snow. I never had my Grabber AT2 on snow.

I don't think interlocking tread is obsolete. I just find it clogs easily on mud, though Grabber AT2 might be the exception due to its cleaning ridges between the lugs. However, both my BFG AT and Grabber AT2 didn't have enough traction on hard slick clay, which is one thing my Cooper AT3 excels at.

I have experienced interlocking treads have more flotation. That helps on sand. It is detrimental on wet highway (hydroplaning). At least with BFG AT. My Grabber AT2 didn't hydroplane on wet highway.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 01:03 PM   #477
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I don't do that kind of stuff, but in a previous post above, Charley says the Generals are at their best on rocky trails, and are tough as nails.
Well, let me be more specific. Grabber AT2 are tough and have good tread for rocky trails AFTER you air them down a bit. At street pressure the carcass is to stiff for rocky trails. To stiff means a brutally bumpy ride and less traction (stiff tire can't conform to terrain).

Once aired down, then Grabber AT2 are good on rocky trails being tough, having a decent ride aired down, and good traction aired down.

My Cooper AT3 are probably not as tough for hardcore abuse on rocks. However, my Cooper AT3 are tough enough for anything I do on rocks, and they have a supple enough carcass that I don't need to air them down for rocky trails, which is a huge convenience.

My cousin's rough, steep, curvy driveway is a half mile long rocky trail (except for the muddy spots). It's really nice and convenient to NOT have to air down my Cooper AT3 to visit him.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 01:11 PM   #478
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One more thing that hasn't been discussed - the Grabber AT2s are round, stay round, and for me have taken little weight to balance, and they stay balanced. I've had no irregular tread wear, flats, or sidewall damage either.
I agree with the round and well balanced statement. Same with Hankook ATM.

I didn't abuse my Grabber AT2 at all. So I can't comment from experience on their sidewall toughness, but all reviews say the GAT2 and Hank ATM have tough sidewalls.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 02:02 PM   #479
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I've been good this year. I'm gonna hold out a bit longer on tire purchase just in case Santa gets GY to release a 30x9.5 Duratrac for me. That and the ole Silent Armors did stellar in this last snow blast.

In the interim, I still hold the Terra Trac AT II in high regard. I'm tempted to reach for a size up as the dimensions are actually 30.2 x 10.6

My make shift rotational inertia calculations put my current set up almost spot on with Eccos and the Herc AT II 31"s. If only it were that easy.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 02:21 PM   #480
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Right on, so they perform admirably in the snow, thus earning that snowflake rating.

Just when I was certain on which direction I'm going with my next set of skins, you cats start entering doubts. Cheers for that.
For you, I'd recommend Hercules AT2, Hankook ATM, or Grabber AT2. Why? They all have a good rep and many good reviews for Winter traction and all around performance (aside from harsh ride concerns of one of them).

Also, the Hankook ATM and Grabber AT2 have good reviews for rocky trails.

The Hercules AT2 is the most popular of those 3 at the Canadian and Alaskan forums I lurk at. i.e. - they like their Winter traction. The Hercules Avalanche Xtreme is also popular for Winter (studded or unstudded) and year round use (unstudded) at Canadian and Alaskan forums

In 30 & 31 Herc AT2 are short, Hank ATM are average height, and Grabber AT2 are tall. So what fits is also something to consider.
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