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Unread 12-16-2013, 02:48 PM   #451
Ed209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPGoody View Post
Ahhh, it is only in the XT at size 16" rims and up, not an option for my wee 15 inchers.


Just so I can be in the know in the future, here are the tread depths(1/32") for each in a 30x9.5 size:

Toyo A/T II - 15.6
Terra Trac II - 16.5
Cooper A/T 3 - 16.5

Still liking the idea of gettin' me some Herc Terra Trac AT II's. If only I could test a set of the 31x10.50 to see if the weight reduction will allow me to live with them.
Or you could try something that equals any of those plus has a serious tread pattern and only weighs 39.39 lbs -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-NEW-LT31X1...0121d0&vxp=mtr

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Unread 12-16-2013, 03:01 PM   #452
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed209 View Post
Or you could try something that equals any of those plus has a serious tread pattern and only weighs 39.39 lbs -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-NEW-LT31X1...0121d0&vxp=mtr
True, but for a few things. I owned the Grabber AT2 before I owned the Cooper AT3 (both in 30 x 9.5 R15 load C).

The Grabber AT2 runs a half inch taller and wider than most 30" ATs. That's good if you can clear it without rubbing. Bad if you can't clear it.

The Grabber is an excellent tire, except for a very hard ride (even in load C). When I say harsh, I don't just mean discomfort. I mean hitting a bump while cornering interfered with my cornering. On some bumps the tire bounced off the ground (and I had new shocks).

Also, the Grabber had a noticeably higher rolling resistance than my Cooper AT3. Enough to be noticeable in both ability to pull hills on freeway and it reduced my gas mileage.

Otherwise it's a great AT. Great for Winter conditions and tough as nails off road.

It has its fans, but they don't care about a comfortable ride, and I don't think they are to worried about gas mileage or noise.

It also howls on highway about as much as a BFG AT, but slightly lower pitch. I haved owned all 3 tires mentioned in this post in size 30 on XJs.

It's a great tire if you want a really rugged AT that runs large and has good Winter traction, but it's not civilized enough for me.

P.S. - the Cooper AT3 and Mastercraft AXT have serious tread patterns and do very well in mud. I have had better mud, gravel and base ball size rocks traction from the Cooper AT3 than I did from Grabber AT2. 30" tires in both cases on same XJ driven on same steep terrains. The Grabber AT2 has a stiff carcass that doesn't conform to obstacles as well as the more pliable Cooper AT3. The AT3 also excels at self cleaning (Grabber AT2 self cleans reasonably well).

For pure toughness in an abusive rocky terrain, the Grabber AT2 is excellent for that (probably the best AT for that). Also excellent for sand. It also excels in Winter conditions. So it does has some merits.

Any of these tires can be a great tire for you. It depends on what attributes you want. What are your priorities?
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Unread 12-16-2013, 03:56 PM   #453
Ed209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
True, but for a few things. I owned the Grabber AT2 before I owned the Cooper AT3 (both in 30 x 9.5 R15 load C).

The Grabber AT2 runs a half inch taller and wider than most 30" ATs. That's good if you can clear it without rubbing. Bad if you can't clear it.

The Grabber is an excellent tire, except for a very hard ride (even in load C). When I say harsh, I don't just mean discomfort. I mean hitting a bump while cornering interfered with my cornering. On some bumps the tire bounced off the ground (and I had new shocks).

Also, the Grabber had a noticeably higher rolling resistance than my Cooper AT3. Enough to be noticeable in both ability to pull hills on freeway and it reduced my gas mileage.

Otherwise it's a great AT. Great for Winter conditions and tough as nails off road.

It has its fans, but they don't care about a comfortable ride, and I don't think they are to worried about gas mileage or noise.

It also howls on highway about as much as a BFG AT, but slightly lower pitch. I haved owned all 3 tires mentioned in this post in size 30 on XJs.

It's a great tire if you want a really rugged AT that runs large and has good Winter traction, but it's not civilized enough for me.

P.S. - the Cooper AT3 and Mastercraft AXT have serious tread patterns and do very well in mud. I have had better mud, gravel and base ball size rocks traction from the Cooper AT3 than I did from Grabber AT2. 30" tires in both cases on same XJ driven on same steep terrains. The Grabber AT2 has a stiff carcass that doesn't conform to obstacles as well as the more pliable Cooper AT3. The AT3 also excels at self cleaning (Grabber AT2 self cleans reasonably well).

For pure toughness in an abusive rocky terrain, the Grabber AT2 is excellent for that (probably the best AT for that). Also excellent for sand. It also excels in Winter conditions. So it does has some merits.

Any of these tires can be a great tire for you. It depends on what attributes you want. What are your priorities?
I guess it's very subjective, but I run C load Grabber AT2s on my Toyo pkup and they are smooth as butter and car quiet. The 16" E loads on my TJ are somewhat harsh even with pressures 3 lbs lower than the door sticker recommendations, however, they are pretty quiet to my ears. Also, there's a guy on this forum or wranglerforum.com who lives in the wettest part of the US in So Alabama, which gets an avg of 72" of rain a yr, and he swears by their mud capability.

The tread patterns on those tires you mention don't look like something you'd put on a Jeep, more like what's on a family sedan.
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Unread 12-16-2013, 04:25 PM   #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
Also, the Grabber had a noticeably higher rolling resistance than my Cooper AT3. Enough to be noticeable in both ability to pull hills on freeway and it reduced my gas mileage.
I just topped up the TJ/Grabber AT2s yesterday after a couple days on dry roads and got 137.6 miles out of 8 gals - 17 mpg. Previously ran two tankfuls in snow/ice at 15.9 mpg and normally get 16.3 in dry conditions. Just how much better could it get with Coopers?
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Unread 12-16-2013, 04:48 PM   #455
mschi772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed209 View Post
The tread patterns on those tires you mention don't look like something you'd put on a Jeep, more like what's on a family sedan.
You drive some pretty aggressive sedans. Photos can be very misleading and, in my experience, tend to make all tires look milder than they really are. No one is saying the Generals aren't good, but they're based on a concept (interlocking tread blocks) that is becoming obsolete in most areas outside of dry and/or rocky areas. That doesn't mean they're BAD in other conditions, but newer technologies and designs ARE better.

Through work, on and off road with some snow in both cases with full-size pickup trucks, I have recently (throughout the past year) added Cooper AT3 and Hercules AT2 (among some others not worthy of mention) to my personal experience. Looks are subjective, and I feel that BFG AT and General AT2 both look milder to me. It doesn't really matter, though--performance is what matters, and I can assure you that tires that have been mentioned such as Coop AT3, Herc AT2, and Hank ATM are significantly more aggressive than you'll find on a family sedan and perform extremely well in the "all terrain" niche.

There is quite a ton of speculation in this thread. Charley often uses his years of experience as a justification for conveying his speculations as more than they really are which is educated assumptions. Shock96 recently picked-up on this and snarked about it. He/she could have been more polite about it, but isn't entirely wrong; in a thread as prominent as this one, we should all be VERY careful about how we discuss so that we don't inadvertently make bad assumptions and/or perpetuate misinformation. I do my fair share of speculating as well. I often try to be very deliberate about saying when I'm speaking from first-hand experience vs conveying research/hearsay vs making educated guesses, but no one is perfect.

Like Charley's first-hand experience comparing General AT2 with Cooper AT3, my first-hand experience with the General AT2 says that they're less than perfect in mud, snow, road noise, handling, and comfort. I don't feel like they're as harsh as Charley says they are, but he's also physically more sensitive to harsh rides due to injury. They're still a great tire, but for anyone driving in snow often, they never make my cut. For anyone doing a lot of street driving, they may or may not warrant a recommendation.

P.S. Charley, having used Coop AT3 and Herc AT2 in essentially identical ways (dry, wet, and snowy versions of: road, dirt road, mild off-road), I think I prefer the Hercs. It's a ridiculously close call, but I feel like the Hercs are a smidge nicer on the road and in snow. I haven't encountered mud with either and likely never will, but if I had to wager, I'd bet on the Coopers for mud, though. The Coopers are on a Silverado while the Hercs are on an F150. Roughly 32" tires give or take an inch and like 10-12" wide I think with E load ratings.
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Unread 12-16-2013, 06:31 PM   #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
How do you know ST is completely different than ST Maxx? They share similar tread pattern. The ST Maxx follows and will replace ST. So what makes you sure they're completely different?

They share similar tread pattern and insufficient siping.

Also, Cooper's commercial tires have ALL always hard very hard rubber. Why would they suddenly depart from that now for ST Maxx?

Also, I didn't compare a Holiday Inn to a Ramada. I compared two related products made by same company, and I owned one of those products.
Well, I read the formulation documents provided to me by Cooper with the changes to the tire. Construction is also different. The tread pattern is not really that similar IMHO.

I am not going to continue on as internet forum disagreements are not worth it. If you want to make recommendations about tires you have never used, sounds good. People can choose as they see fit.
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Unread 12-16-2013, 08:32 PM   #457
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed209 View Post
The tread patterns on those tires you mention don't look like something you'd put on a Jeep, more like what's on a family sedan.
I was unaware its a tire beauty contest. If that's the criteria, Grabber AT2 is very good looking and rugged looking

However, I have people IRL comment on my AT3 have "deep beefy looking tread" and looking rugged. That doesn't show in Coooer's photos on their website.

I also got same compliments on the Grabber AT2, plus compliments on it being tall and wide for a 30".

Due to larger sidewall lugs, the Hercules AT2 and Hankook ATM look more agressive than Cooper AT3.

They all look good to me, but let's remember it's not a beauty contest. It's a functionality contest (or should be).
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Unread 12-16-2013, 08:37 PM   #458
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shock96 View Post
Well, I read the formulation documents provided to me by Cooper with the changes to the tire. Construction is also different. The tread pattern is not really that similar IMHO.

I am not going to continue on as internet forum disagreements are not worth it. If you want to make recommendations about tires you have never used, sounds good. People can choose as they see fit.
I gave my opinion. I was clear about it being an opinion and explained what my opinion is based on. I've also read user reviews at truck forums and those reviews said what my opinion already was.

Try them and let us know how they are on packed snow and ice.
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Unread 12-16-2013, 09:23 PM   #459
jeepjamesw1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shock96 View Post
I am not going to continue on as internet forum disagreements are not worth it. If you want to make recommendations about tires you have never used, sounds good. People can choose as they see fit.
It appears you've had internet disagreements before. Glad you won't continue. To each their own.

Charley3-good thread!!

Is it off subject to continue with the discussion of tires for heavy one ton pickups? What about the Toyo Open Country H/T with Tuff Duty for a one ton Ford F350PU Diesel used for towing a trailer? It is used mostly highway but also some gravel and desert roads. Any other tire suggestions?
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Unread 12-16-2013, 10:09 PM   #460
Charley3
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Hey Shock96, you're new to this forum and thread.

I don't want you feeling bad or taking our disagreement personally. I'm not taking it personal.

We're just having a discussion, which included some disagreement, but that happens in any discussion on Web or IRL.

The important thing is don't make disagreements personal, and don't take them personal.

I don't have any hard feelings. I hope you don't either.

Welcome to the forum and this thread. I hope you come back and share your experiences with whatever tire you choose, or stick around if you want to. Someone who owns Cooper ST Maxx might answer your original post eventually.

I think the reason no one here so far has posted about owning them is they are commercial traction tires made for and used on 3/4 & 1 ton trucks and perhaps not many Jeep owners have them.

You'd get more info at 3/4 & 1 ton truck forums. Not chasing you off though.
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Unread 12-16-2013, 10:14 PM   #461
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepjamesw1 View Post
It appears you've had internet disagreements before. Glad you won't continue. To each their own.

Charley3-good thread!!

Is it off subject to continue with the discussion of tires for heavy one ton pickups? What about the Toyo Open Country H/T with Tuff Duty for a one ton Ford F350PU Diesel used for towing a trailer? It is used mostly highway but also some gravel and desert roads. Any other tire suggestions?
I appreciate your loyalty, but let's go easy on Shock96. I too have had Internet disagreements before. Haven't we all? I know how ugly they can get. I don't want that. Let's all step back from it and welcome Shock96, a new member to the forum.
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Unread 12-16-2013, 10:19 PM   #462
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed209 View Post
I just topped up the TJ/Grabber AT2s yesterday after a couple days on dry roads and got 137.6 miles out of 8 gals - 17 mpg. Previously ran two tankfuls in snow/ice at 15.9 mpg and normally get 16.3 in dry conditions. Just how much better could it get with Coopers?
2 or 3 mpg
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Unread 12-16-2013, 10:40 PM   #463
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
You drive some pretty aggressive sedans. Photos can be very misleading and, in my experience, tend to make all tires look milder than they really are. No one is saying the Generals aren't good, but they're based on a concept (interlocking tread blocks) that is becoming obsolete in most areas outside of dry and/or rocky areas. That doesn't mean they're BAD in other conditions, but newer technologies and designs ARE better.

Through work, on and off road with some snow in both cases with full-size pickup trucks, I have recently (throughout the past year) added Cooper AT3 and Hercules AT2 (among some others not worthy of mention) to my personal experience. Looks are subjective, and I feel that BFG AT and General AT2 both look milder to me. It doesn't really matter, though--performance is what matters, and I can assure you that tires that have been mentioned such as Coop AT3, Herc AT2, and Hank ATM are significantly more aggressive than you'll find on a family sedan and perform extremely well in the "all terrain" niche.

There is quite a ton of speculation in this thread. Charley often uses his years of experience as a justification for conveying his speculations as more than they really are which is educated assumptions. Shock96 recently picked-up on this and snarked about it. He/she could have been more polite about it, but isn't entirely wrong; in a thread as prominent as this one, we should all be VERY careful about how we discuss so that we don't inadvertently make bad assumptions and/or perpetuate misinformation. I do my fair share of speculating as well. I often try to be very deliberate about saying when I'm speaking from first-hand experience vs conveying research/hearsay vs making educated guesses, but no one is perfect.

Like Charley's first-hand experience comparing General AT2 with Cooper AT3, my first-hand experience with the General AT2 says that they're less than perfect in mud, snow, road noise, handling, and comfort. I don't feel like they're as harsh as Charley says they are, but he's also physically more sensitive to harsh rides due to injury. They're still a great tire, but for anyone driving in snow often, they never make my cut. For anyone doing a lot of street driving, they may or may not warrant a recommendation.

P.S. Charley, having used Coop AT3 and Herc AT2 in essentially identical ways (dry, wet, and snowy versions of: road, dirt road, mild off-road), I think I prefer the Hercs. It's a ridiculously close call, but I feel like the Hercs are a smidge nicer on the road and in snow. I haven't encountered mud with either and likely never will, but if I had to wager, I'd bet on the Coopers for mud, though. The Coopers are on a Silverado while the Hercs are on an F150. Roughly 32" tires give or take an inch and like 10-12" wide I think with E load ratings.
Our opinions of General Grabber AT2 are in agreement, except I have more confidence in them for snow and ice than you do, and their rough ride bothers me more than you (I have a bad back). They're the roughest riding ATs I've ever driven on. They feel to me like a Commercial Traction or MT. That rougher ride might be OK for some, but I sure don't like it.

By contrast, my Cooper AT3 ride exceptionally soft for a load C AT. I've heard Hercules AT2 rides as nice as Coop AT3 and they share same carcass.

So you've been driving Cooper AT3 and Hercules AT2? Huh. Good to know. What do you like better about Hercules AT2 on road? Please be specific.

I'm sure Herc AT2 is better on packed snow and ice because it has twice as many sipes as Coop AT3. But I doubt there'd be a difference in deep snow. What type snow were you referring to?

My Cooper AT3 are really good in mud for ATs. I have driven slightly uphill in 4" deep gooy mud in 2wd with open diff without spinning. My BFG AT in 2wd open diff used to get stuck driving slightly uphill in 1" deep gooey mud. My Grabber AT2 in 2wd open diff didn't get stuck in 1" mud going slightly uphill, but they did spin and slip a little.

I have no experience with Hercules AT2 in mud. I speculate it wouldn't be a good as Cooper AT3. I base that on Herc AT2 having smaller voids. So we're both speculating same for Herc AT2 and mud.
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Unread 12-16-2013, 11:21 PM   #464
Shock96
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Just a quick note about Charley3. He is a great guy and has put alot of effort into giving out info. He wanted to make sure there wasn't any hard feelings about our disagreement and I have none. Cool guy who really cares about the users here and giving out what info he has to everyone. Thanks Charley!
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Unread 12-16-2013, 11:23 PM   #465
Shock96
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One quick point about Hercules that I found out Friday. They are their own company, not a subsidiary of Cooper like Mastercraft. They have their own molds and carcasses and their own plants. Cooper does make some tires for them, but not all and they don't share technology. That is what the folks at Hercules told me when I asked about the R/S.
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