Not your average "Who makes the best AT?" thread. This is an above average one! - Page 30 - JeepForum.com

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post #436 of 1245 Old 12-13-2013, 01:12 AM
Shock96
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Very interesting thread! I personally have Duratrac's on my Dodge 1500 in load range E. Work great for me.

I sold all my Jeeps and picked up a 4x4 1 ton Econoline van and it needs some new tires. Load range E of course. I had 2 questions:

There has been comments about the ST Maxx not being good in snow. Does anyone actually own this tire and use it in the snow? I have read about other folks who actually have them and they work great.

2nd, has anyone used the Hercules Terra Trac RS? Now these are a heavy duty commercial traction in load range E (3 ply sidewall for most) so I am not expecting anyone has used them in this thread. They look great though.



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post #437 of 1245 Old 12-15-2013, 12:41 AM Thread Starter
Charley3
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The Cooper ST Maxx might be OK for snow. I don't know, but I think it's probably slick as snot on ice because it is made of hard rubber and doesn't have enoufh sipes near a right angle to tire rotation.

I owned the Cooper ST (predecessor of ST Maxx). The ST was similar. It was slick as can be on ice and packed snow. So I had tire store add cut sipes to center treads. With the addition of extra sipes it was OK on ice.

The Hercules Terra Trac RS is a close relative of Mastercraft CT. These are two of the original good hybrid tires that existed before Duratrac came along. The RS and CT are excellent tires. So is Duratrac. It's hard to say which of those is the best hybrid aka commercial traction tire.

If you need Winter traction, Duratrac is a proven performer. The RS might be good for Winter traction too. Not sure. I doubt the CT would be good on ice because it's made of very hard rubber.

I know the CT is very popular with loggers on their 3/4 ton (load D) and 1 ton (load E) pickups (they drive a lot on rock roads, mud, snow,and highway). It's also popular with some Jeep owners (load C) at this forum.

Warning: I often edit my posts a few times to get them complete, or to correct errors.
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post #438 of 1245 Old 12-15-2013, 12:54 AM Thread Starter
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P.S. - the Cooper ST, Cooper ST Maxx, Mastercraft CT, and Hercules RS are all 1st cousins.

Cooper owns and makes Mastercraft tires.

Cooper makes the RS tire for Hercules tire company.

Hercules is an independent company that hires Cooper to make some of its tires.

Warning: I often edit my posts a few times to get them complete, or to correct errors.
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post #439 of 1245 Old 12-15-2013, 01:15 AM
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Well, the original ST has a completely different carcass and rubber formulation so it is not a fair comparison IMHO. Other than having ST in the name, they are different tires.

All I am saying is that you are giving out advice on tires based on never having used them. It's kinda like saying the Ramada Inn sucks because you stayed at a Holiday Inn and it was not any good. That doesn't seem right to me. Go buy a set and give them a shot and then report back.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate this thread and the work you have put into it, but you shouldn't make blind comments without proper testing/perspective.

I agree that the AT3 is a great tire based on what I have read in tests, but I have never used them. I had the original ATR on my wife's Expedition and they were excellent.

On the Hercules R/S, I think I am going to order up a set and give them a try. Might be a good heavy duty tire for larger vehicles.
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post #440 of 1245 Old 12-15-2013, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shock96 View Post
all i am saying is that you are giving out advice on tires based on never having used them. It's kinda like saying the ramada inn sucks because you stayed at a holiday inn and it was not any good. That doesn't seem right to me. Go buy a set and give them a shot and then report back.
ouch!!
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post #441 of 1245 Old 12-15-2013, 11:57 PM
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Well, I am not trying to be a dick or anything. I just don't agree with talking against a product without ever having used it. Just my opinion.
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post #442 of 1245 Old 12-16-2013, 03:39 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shock96 View Post
Well, I am not trying to be a dick or anything. I just don't agree with talking against a product without ever having used it. Just my opinion.
How do you know ST is completely different than ST Maxx? They share similar tread pattern. The ST Maxx follows and will replace ST. So what makes you sure they're completely different?

They share similar tread pattern and insufficient siping.

Also, Cooper's commercial tires have ALL always hard very hard rubber. Why would they suddenly depart from that now for ST Maxx?

Also, I didn't compare a Holiday Inn to a Ramada. I compared two related products made by same company, and I owned one of those products.

Warning: I often edit my posts a few times to get them complete, or to correct errors.
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post #443 of 1245 Old 12-16-2013, 06:36 AM
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I vote toyo at2!

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post #444 of 1245 Old 12-16-2013, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by zte87 View Post
I vote toyo at2!
To me the Toyo A/T II has many similarities to the Cooper A/T3 and Hercules Tera Trac AT-II.


What are the pros and cons of the Toyo?

I ask because until recently I completely overlooked this tire and want to know more.
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post #445 of 1245 Old 12-16-2013, 01:09 PM Thread Starter
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Just based on a visual comparison the Cooper AT3 appears to have slightly larger voids than the Toyo AT2 LT.

However, the Toyo AT2 Xtreme has larger voids than Cooper AT3.

I personally think the Toyo AT2 Xtreme version is more of a hybrid tire (more aggressive than AT, less agressive than MT.

---

So Toyo AT2 LT is a typical AT with regard to void size. Cooper AT3 has slightly larger voids than most ATs, but is still an AT. Toyo AT2 XT is a hybrid tire. IMO

That's my opinion based on owning Cooper AT3 and having visually compared it to the Toyo tires. I'm just stating my opinion. So don't anyone ream me out for an opinion.

Warning: I often edit my posts a few times to get them complete, or to correct errors.
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post #446 of 1245 Old 12-16-2013, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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The Hercules AT2 is similar to Toyo AT2 LT, Cooper AT3, Mastercraft AXT, Mickey Thompson SXT, Dick Cepek Trail Country, Nitto Terra Grappler, and a little similar to Hankook ATM.

What sets the Hercules AT2 and Hankook ATM apart is more sipes for better traction on packed snow and ice. However their tread patterns have slightly smaller voids than Cooper AT3. The smaller voids suggest less self cleaning of mud.

Mastercraft AXT, Mickey Thompson SXT, and Dick Cepek Trail Country have same (or very similar) sipes and voids as Cooper AT3.

Warning: I often edit my posts a few times to get them complete, or to correct errors.
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post #447 of 1245 Old 12-16-2013, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
Just based on a visual comparison the Cooper AT3 appears to have slightly larger voids than the Toyo AT2 LT.

However, the Toyo AT2 Xtreme has larger voids than Cooper AT3.

I personally think the Toyo AT2 Xtreme version is more of a hybrid tire (more aggressive than AT, less agressive than MT.

---

So Toyo AT2 LT is a typical AT with regard to void size. Cooper AT3 has slightly larger voids than most ATs, but is still an AT. Toyo AT2 XT is a hybrid tire. IMO

That's my opinion based on owning Cooper AT3 and having visually compared it to the Toyo tires. I'm just stating my opinion. So don't anyone ream me out for an opinion.
Ahhh, it is only in the XT at size 16" rims and up, not an option for my wee 15 inchers.


Just so I can be in the know in the future, here are the tread depths(1/32") for each in a 30x9.5 size:

Toyo A/T II - 15.6
Terra Trac II - 16.5
Cooper A/T 3 - 16.5

Still liking the idea of gettin' me some Herc Terra Trac AT II's. If only I could test a set of the 31x10.50 to see if the weight reduction will allow me to live with them.
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post #448 of 1245 Old 12-16-2013, 01:59 PM Thread Starter
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Hybrid tires (term used by Cooper, it's subsidiary companies, and some other brands) and Agressive AT (term used by Goodyear) mean the same thing.

A tire more aggressive than an AT, but less aggressive than MT. Can also mean a tire that's a crossbreed of AT & MT - typically with AT center treads and MT outer treads like Duratrac and others, but could also have AT treads on one half the tire and MT on the other like MTR-K.

Does the term Commercial Traction tire mean the same thing as Hybrid or Aggressive AT? The answer is merky and subject to opinion.

In my opinion, Commercial Traction used to mean the same thing since the CT tires were the original hybrids aka agressive ATs.

However, true CT tires have hard rubber to give long wear on heavy 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks. That reduces traction on ice and snow, especially when used on a 1/4 ton SUV. Also, commercial traction tires were traditionally available mostly in R16 load D or E because they were intended for large work trucks, not small SUVs.

However, in recent years Goodyear, Mastercraft (Cooper), Procomp (Cooper), Dick Cepek (Cooper), and possibly others have realized SUV owners would like to use these tires on small and medium size SUVs. So now there are more load C & D choices in R16 and also now some R15 load C choices now too.

Also, as tire manufacturers have begun realizing there is demand for these tires on small, medium, and large SUVs, they've begun offering rubber compound on some of these tires that isn't as hard as a traditional CT tire. This improves snow and ice traction. Duratrac is the perfect example.

So now there are still Commercial Traction tires that fit only that category (hard rubber, mostly R16 sizes in load D or E), but there are also tires that are both CT and true hybrids (rubber not as hard as CT, and offering load C tires in R15 &/or R16.

Duratrac is a good example of a tire that is both CT and a true hybrid. This expands Goodyears market for Duratrac from CT for big work trucks only to also include small and medium size SUVs.

Procomp and Dick Cepek, and maybe Mickey Thompson, also offer tires that are both CT and true hybrid, but they don't market them as CT. They market them to light trucks and SUVs. However, I don't think they've made as good a hybrid as Goodyear has in the Duratrac and MTR-K. Though the Dick Cepek FC2 is reputedly a good hybrid.

Warning: I often edit my posts a few times to get them complete, or to correct errors.
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post #449 of 1245 Old 12-16-2013, 02:13 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JPGoody View Post
Ahhh, it is only in the XT at size 16" rims and up, not an option for my wee 15 inchers.


Just so I can be in the know in the future, here are the tread depths(1/32") for each in a 30x9.5 size:

Toyo A/T II - 15.6
Terra Trac II - 16.5
Cooper A/T 3 - 16.5

Still liking the idea of gettin' me some Herc Terra Trac AT II's. If only I could test a set of the 31x10.50 to see if the weight reduction will allow me to live with them.
So we're talking 30 x 9.5 R15 specifically. That's my size.

My faves in that size are (in no particular order): Cooper AT3, Mastercraft AXT, Hercules AT2, and Hankook ATM.

For soft ride the first 3 are best.

For mud the first 2 are best.

For ice the last 2 are best.

For deep snow they're all good.

For noise, Cooper AT3 & Mastercraft AXT are quiet. Not sure about Hercules AT2. Hankook ATM makes typical AT slight noise.

The Hankook ATM is 1/4" taller than those others.

For all else they're equal.

Warning: I often edit my posts a few times to get them complete, or to correct errors.
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post #450 of 1245 Old 12-16-2013, 02:32 PM Thread Starter
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPGoody View Post
Ahhh, it is only in the XT at size 16" rims and up, not an option for my wee 15 inchers.


Just so I can be in the know in the future, here are the tread depths(1/32") for each in a 30x9.5 size:

Toyo A/T II - 15.6
Terra Trac II - 16.5
Cooper A/T 3 - 16.5

Still liking the idea of gettin' me some Herc Terra Trac AT II's. If only I could test a set of the 31x10.50 to see if the weight reduction will allow me to live with them.
Hankook ATM 30 x 9.5 R15 tread depth is 16.5.

Warning: I often edit my posts a few times to get them complete, or to correct errors.
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