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Unread 11-21-2013, 11:43 PM   #406
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed209 View Post
It would be a problem for me, not only in looking wrong, but because keeping the BS the same moves the wheel center line 1/2" inboard, reducing the track 1", which actually reduces rear spring tower/front control arm & tire clearance by .3". It wouldn't cause rubbing, but the Jeep engineers made the Moabs with the 5"(actually 5.125") BS for a reason - plenty of clearance. I don't plan to ever air down to rock climbing levels, so that's not a even a consideration. In addition, the slim spokes of the Silverstars would look completely out of place on the Rubi, so even if they had the correct 4.5" BS, I still wouldn't use them.

The Grabber AT2 is 9.8" wide on a 7" wheel, and is 10.2" wide on the 8" wide wheel, which IS working great on the Moabs with a level contact patch at 28-30 lbs!
Every source on the Web that I've ever seen (other than yourself) says Moab have 5" BS.

I don't think you'd have any tire clearance problems with 245s on Silverstar or Moab.

Your Silverstars would look great on my XJ. Sell them to me.

If the Grabber AT2 245 runs wide as you say, you have a good plan, if they are available in load C.

Another 245 that runs wide is Duratrac, and it's available in load C. I have seen 245 Duratrac load C on a Ford Ranger with 16 x 7 Ford Ranger aluminum wheels. I was amazed to see how wide they looked. They look like 10" wide tires. FYI - those Ford Ranger/Explorer stock 16 x 7 wheel have less BS than Jeep stock 16 x 7 wheels.

I've heard the Ford 16 x 7, bolt pattern 5 on 4.5, wheels come in various BS such as 4.25", 4.5", 4.75", and perhaps 5". Those Ford Ranger/Explorer wheels are hubcentric for Ford Ranger and Explorer, and Jeep YJ, XJ, TJ, ZJ, KJ. So that is where you can can a hubcentric 16 x 7 with less BS. Though I think your Moab are OK with the brands of 245 that run wide.

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Unread 11-22-2013, 12:11 AM   #407
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepjamesw1 View Post
Staying with the stock size tire (245x75r16) does have it's advantages. Actually, I'm not at stock height, but close and I still have the Moab wheels. First thing I did back in 05 was to give it a 1" BL so I could install a belly up skid. Plus recently I installed the OME springs to level it out after a winch install. This actually gives me room for a 255x85r16 tire. But, I felt a 33"+ size tire is to tall for the stock 4.10 gearing. I also like the lower center of gravity more than most as I sometimes drive at higher speeds in the Utah desert. Up to 60mph over washboard roads. It makes sense for me to run a AT type tire as this fits the Utah terrain better than a MT type tire. The 265x75r16 Duratrac "C" is quoted at around 45lbs and is still almost 5lbs lighter than the stock MTR tires. These should not be a big issue with the stock 4.10 gearing as per others running a similar set-up. However, either 265x75 or the 245x75 "C" Duratracs both appear to be a valid option for me. I was thinking that the 265x75 being the same size as my F350 tires (except for E load factor) might save me buying an extra spare tire as I can use my old tires as spares. I'll just do a 4 tire rotation vs a 5 tire rotation.

Since I suddenly need truck tires (two are cracking), I plan to mount one of my old truck 265x75 tires to my spare Moab wheel and test fit it to the Jeep at all five locations. This is just to verify the size (extra width) fits OK before the actual purchase is made for the jeep.
I prefer narrower tires (245 to 255 aka 9.5 to 10") for DD and Winter roads. However, for desert stuff, especially high speed desert, I'd rather have a 265 aka 10.5" wide tire. That's still reasonably good on Winter roads. I think it'd probably clear and not rub.

So I recommend Duratrac 256/75R15 load C for your Moabs and desert activities.

However, Duratrac 245/75R15 run wide. They are really a 10" wide tire IRL. So that tire (in load C) would also be good enoug for high speed desert, and it'd be great on Winter roads.

Ideally I'd put a Duratrac 245 on a Ford Ranger/Explorer stock wheel. They fit Jeeps that use 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern. They have correct bolt pattern, are hubcentric, and come in a variety of BS such as 4.5, 4.75, 5 and perhaps other BS.

But to keep it easy, a Duratrac 245 would be good on a Moab.
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Unread 11-22-2013, 11:03 AM   #408
jeepjamesw1
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Thanks Charley3
I prefer easy so I'll plan to keep the Moab wheels. I appreciate the review you gave me on thread 407 and the others.
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Unread 11-22-2013, 12:14 PM   #409
Ed209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
Every source on the Web that I've ever seen (other than yourself) says Moab have 5" BS.

I don't think you'd have any tire clearance problems with 245s on Silverstar or Moab.

Your Silverstars would look great on my XJ. Sell them to me.

If the Grabber AT2 245 runs wide as you say, you have a good plan, if they are available in load C.

Another 245 that runs wide is Duratrac, and it's available in load C. I have seen 245 Duratrac load C on a Ford Ranger with 16 x 7 Ford Ranger aluminum wheels. I was amazed to see how wide they looked. They look like 10" wide tires. FYI - those Ford Ranger/Explorer stock 16 x 7 wheel have less BS than Jeep stock 16 x 7 wheels.

I've heard the Ford 16 x 7, bolt pattern 5 on 4.5, wheels come in various BS such as 4.25", 4.5", 4.75", and perhaps 5". Those Ford Ranger/Explorer wheels are hubcentric for Ford Ranger and Explorer, and Jeep YJ, XJ, TJ, ZJ, KJ. So that is where you can can a hubcentric 16 x 7 with less BS. Though I think your Moab are OK with the brands of 245 that run wide.
I've measured my Moabs and Silverstars very meticulously and they are both exactly 5.125". Believe what you wish, but I suggest you measure instead of believing any published BS. I also measured my brother's Eccos and they have 5.25" BS.

Yep - the Grabber AT2 is relatively wide for a 245/75-16 at 9.8 on a 7" and 10.1-10.2 wide on an 8". No load C available in that size tho. Duratracs are also 9.8" wide on a 7" rim, but they are smaller diam at 30.5".

There are no clearance problems with the Moabs, and probably not with the SS, but SS isn't gonna happen on my Rubi. We might possibly work a deal on my SS + $ for your 15x8 Alcoas, depending on their BS, which I believe is 5.25", but would need measuring to verify. Such a deal would also depend on just how precious the Alcoas are.

I recall checking the Ford wheels out some time ago and didn't find anything suitable, but I'll look again.
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Unread 11-22-2013, 12:40 PM   #410
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepjamesw1 View Post
Thanks Charley3
I prefer easy so I'll plan to keep the Moab wheels. I appreciate the review you gave me on thread 407 and the others.
After thoughts... The Duratrac runs standard height and wide in 245 and 265. That is asset for your needs in 245. In 265 it might mean clearance problems.

Hercules AT2, Mastercraft AXT, and Cooper AT3 run standard height and width in 245 and 265. So they are probably a bit to narrow for high speed desert in 245, but would be perfect in 265 and would clear in 265. These 3 are the softest riding good ATs in those sizes in load C.
Soft ride would be an asset for high speed desert.

Cooper AT3 and Mastercraft AXT have 5 rows of tread and 4 rows of wide circumferential grooves for excellent lateral traction, which keep you in control at high speeds. Cooper brags about this and I have experienced it to be true when I'm speeding down CURVY gravel roads at 30 to 35 mph.

The Cooper AT3 excels at NOT retaining rocks in the treads. Cooper brags about this on their website and I have experienced ths to be true. My Cooper AT3 retain far fewer gravel than the Grabber AT2 or BFG AT I had in the past. I don't know if Mastercraft AXT or Hercules AT2 share this attribute.

I'm not sure how the Hercules AT2 tread would do at high speed desert. I know it excels at Winter conditions (including ice) and has a good soft ride.

All 3 of those tires share same Cooper AT3 designed carcass.

If I were racing a TJ across desert at high speed using Moabs the Cooper AT3 265 load C would be my 1st choice, and the Duratrac 245 load C would be my 2nd choice. Though Moabs wouldn't be my ideal choice for wheel.

My ideal wheels (for racing TJ across desert) would be Ford Ranger/Explorer 16 x 7, 5 on 4.5, 4.75 BS, hubcentric for Ford and Jeep, and Duratrac 245 load C or Cooper AT3 265 load C. That or Canyon 15 x 8 and some 31 x 10.5 R15 Duratrac or Toyo AT2 load C. See post 326.
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Unread 11-22-2013, 03:02 PM   #411
jeepjamesw1
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Charley3
Thanks again!! I've been impressed with what you have said about the Cooper AT3 as you know I also and have an interest in the Toyo AT2 and Duratrac. You might remember I have a 1" body lift and a slight amount of spring lift (OME), and understand I may have to adjust the steering stops to keep the tires out of my control arms and sway bar disconnects if they are too wide. Even the 245's have at times brushed against the disconnects when the sway bar was disconnected. The bar, however, may have slipped from center. I'll also verify bump stops and clearance when test fitting a 265 Cooper tire that will come off my truck. I'll use your bump stop suggestions if they need to be adjusted, or better yet, keep the smaller tire. FYI-Discount tires computer says only fender modifications are needed to fit the 265 Duratrac on a stock Rubicon. I normally try not to drive in snow, if it can be helped, so this is only a secondary thought concerning any winter driving.
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Unread 11-22-2013, 06:08 PM   #412
JPGoody
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Hercules Hurcules

After driving around and visiting multiple shops and physically touching and breathing in some tires and just meditating on it. I've decided I'm gonna give these Hercules Terra Trac AT II's a try over the Coop AT/3. I have a handful of reasons, but am finally at peace with the situation. First I need to paint my newly acquired rims.

(Disclaimer I'd buy Duratracs if they came in a 30x9.5)



The 'Hercs' were quoted at $29 less a tire over the Cooper AT/3. And I really got good business vibes form the shop running Hercules tires. The other big reason is the 29.3" spec'd diameter. With 3.07s and dropping 8lbs per rim I hope I can live with this for a cycle. Herc place does standard road force balancing and at $4 buck less a tire than the two places that handle coopers do 'regular' balancing. As the owner at the 'Herc' place said, we bought the machine, why the F wouldn't I use it and teach each of my employees to master it? The 2 cooper places gave me vibes on the bad side. Coming form a background of family owned small business I demand solid business skills. I feel the Herc AT II will give me the ride and traction I need in snow that turns to ice that turns to slush that turns to use a whole reservoir of window solvent wetness as I come down in elevation. There seems to be a bit less void space in the Herc vs the AT/3, I'd assume this hurts my mud abilities a bit, but in the dry CO summers I don't get much mud. Also, I hate the city and am working on getting out so who knows what my tire needs will be in a year and this tire will do fairly well in potential new environments and won't break the bank if I only end up running them for a while. And if I slice one in the mtns so be it, I'll slap my extra kevlar on and cruise down the hill and maybe toss something different on. Hercules being a US company is a welcomed addition.


Rock On!
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Unread 11-22-2013, 06:33 PM   #413
jeepjamesw1
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JPGoody
I think after reading reviews and then sniffing around the tire stores will give someone the knowledge needed to make an informed decision, based upon their actual needs. I hope this choice works out well for you. By the way, what engine and trans. do you have??
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Unread 11-22-2013, 07:03 PM   #414
JPGoody
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Giggidy

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepjamesw1 View Post
JPGoody
I think after reading reviews and then sniffing around the tire stores will give someone the knowledge needed to make an informed decision, based upon their actual needs. I hope this choice works out well for you. By the way, what engine and trans. do you have??

Engine
4.0L

Transmission
NV3550


And a 'new' set of mismatched doors.
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Unread 11-22-2013, 08:47 PM   #415
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepjamesw1 View Post
Charley3
Thanks again!! I've been impressed with what you have said about the Cooper AT3 as you know I also and have an interest in the Toyo AT2 and Duratrac. You might remember I have a 1" body lift and a slight amount of spring lift (OME), and understand I may have to adjust the steering stops to keep the tires out of my control arms and sway bar disconnects if they are too wide. Even the 245's have at times brushed against the disconnects when the sway bar was disconnected. The bar, however, may have slipped from center. I'll also verify bump stops and clearance when test fitting a 265 Cooper tire that will come off my truck. I'll use your bump stop suggestions if they need to be adjusted, or better yet, keep the smaller tire. I normally try not to drive in snow, if it can be helped, so this is only a secondary thought concerning any winter driving.
All the tires I recommended are very good on snow. It's ice that separates them in Winter conditions. The Duratrac is one of the better on ice, the Hankook ATM and Hercules AT2 are the best on ice (most sipes). The Cooper AT3 is rated (by Consumer Reports) as OK on ice. I'd expect the Mastercraft AXT and Toyo AT2 would also be OK on ice.
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Unread 11-22-2013, 08:58 PM   #416
Charley3
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JPGoody, please keep us informed how the Hercules AT2 are working for you.

I agree they have a bit less void then Cooper AT3, but have more sipes.

I love my Cooper AT3, but ice traction is more important to me than mud traction.

If I'd known of Hercules AT2 sooner, I'd probably have bought it instead of Cooper AT3. Ice cannot be avoided and can kill you. Mud is only an inconvenience and can be avoided if I stay on road.

So for me ice trumps mud, and the Hercules AT2 is the clear choice for ice. Well, that or Hankook ATM.

If Cooper would put more sipes on the Cooper AT3 it would improve from OK to good on ice, and it would still be better in mud than the Hercules AT2 or Hankook ATM. If it had more sipes, the Cooper AT3 would be a perfect, IMO.

But as things are now, the Herc AT2 or Hank ATM are the best good ATs for ice, which is a priority to me. Even so, I'm quite pleased with my Cooper AT3.
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Unread 11-27-2013, 10:50 AM   #417
Hytek
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Man just when I thought I knew which tire I was going to buy Friday now I'm all over the place again lol. Great thread and thanks for keeping it updated Charley! I have Duratracs on my ZJ and love them but I'm shopping for an a/t for my daily driver WJ. I thought I was set on 245/65-17 Nitto Terra Grapplers but I didn't see any mention of them here or really anywhere for Jeeps that is(forgive me if you did mention them and I missed it, I tried reading all 28 pages lol). I'm diggin the tread pattern and Nitto has always served me well on my Mustangs in the past. 2nd runner ups were Hankook Dynapro and Cooper ATP, but I think I may move the Hankooks to the top of my list now after reading everyone's reviews in this thread. I would like to try the GY a/t Adventures but I just can't justify the extra funds for them right now. Any thoughts on the Terra Grapplers?
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98 5.9 Limited - IRO 3.5", IRO short arms track bars Bilsteins, Addco, JK wheels, 255-75/17 BFG, Magnaflow, Flowmaster
04 Limited 4.7H.O QD, UC+BB, Bilsteins, 245/75-16 Duratracs Addco sway bar
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Unread 11-27-2013, 06:58 PM   #418
Charley3
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Nitto Terra Grapplers have 5 lug wide design, with 2 to 4 circumferential grooves (depending on your opinion), similar to the best new generation ATs. I like that the NTG has 3 sipes per tread block. The more sipes the better for wet pavement and especially for ice.

They look like good tires to me. I think they were ahead of their time with their 5 lug design. However, there are now several other newer designs of AT tires with 5 lug pattern that may have improved on the design.

Here is a thread about Nitto Terra Grapplers http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f15/m...ers-xj-426218/
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Unread 11-27-2013, 08:26 PM   #419
Hytek
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Cool thanks Charley. I'll report back with my purchase and review.
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98 5.9 Limited - IRO 3.5", IRO short arms track bars Bilsteins, Addco, JK wheels, 255-75/17 BFG, Magnaflow, Flowmaster
04 Limited 4.7H.O QD, UC+BB, Bilsteins, 245/75-16 Duratracs Addco sway bar
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Unread 11-27-2013, 09:51 PM   #420
Charley3
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Cool thanks Charley. I'll report back with my purchase and review.
Thanks. More info about Nitto Terra Grappler AT would be a good addition to this thread.
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