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Unread 11-15-2013, 12:58 AM   #346
JPGoody
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Tires are the thing on your jeep that make contact with the road.

Great Thread Hombres. Keep it up.

I'd like to thank 2 16oz caned Crank Yanker IPAs and Great Divide Hibernation English Style Old Ale for allowing me to methodically cruise through the pages. All the while conversing in an involved and attentive manner with my special lady friend. She is off to bed now.

I have very limited experience with AT tires. I've logged copious city miles of astro/safari-van flower delivery style tires under my belt. I'd compare all of those tires to the 28" Wrangler GS/A's that came stock on my rig. Junk if anything other than the road happens! Yet some how I went through two more sets of GY Wranglers with my jeep.

MTRs and the Silent Armors w/Kevlar.

Loved the MTRs, however at 32x11.50 were way to much for the manual 3.07 geared WranglerX even in the flat mid-west. They only lasted 2 winters of driving 360 salt encrusted hwy miles round trip to snowboard. When younger I'd swear that those tires helped my pull ladies. Not an AT I know but thought I'd share. I recall them being good in snow, mud and sand. Poorer in wet conditions and had a hum I now miss on the hwy. I sold the MTRs when I took a job in Oregon as I knew the 32s would not clear the great divide. Back on went the 28"s.


Silent Armors went on in 2007, 30x9.5s, thinking they will help fill the wheel wells left vacant by the 2-3" of shocks and BB/BL installed for the 32s, yet give me my "power" back. They also seemed all the rage in 07. They look OK?, check the profile pic, but not so much on the power back side of things, still labors with 3.07s here in the CO mtns. They now have +40K on them and have served me well. As the name says, silent on the road, even with doors off at hwy speeds. I run doors off from May-Oct. Good in rocks, I trust the sidewalls, is it the kevlar? Solid in snow. Not much to say for the mud as most of their lives have been in CO, don't run across it a lot. They recently did well in an inclined suction cupped lose yer shoe style +4" at elk camp and at closer to bald, it was in 4L. Haven't really seen any sand. The sidewalls of the tire have been peeling off in past few years, see profile pic. The tire is old in years and has lived in city and disregards curbs routinely. Just wanted to note it.



The Silent Armor was a really good tire, but I prob wont buy them again. Mostly because I think a lighter(and possibly smaller) tire will suit me well. I drive a lot of hwy miles to finish off-road style to snowboard/fly fish/elk hunt/jeep camp or just trail run for the day. Plus why not try something new?


I'm looking at the Cooper AT/3 as it's 29.3" size and low weight will help my power cause. The Duratrac 28.9" size and even lower weight will help my power cause even more. Both seem to get great mud/snow/wet ratings and I like that a lot. I don't care so much about road ride as I'm fairly certain both will be better than or equal to the silent armor. The Toyo Open Country A/T II has my interest. It has the least tread depth of the three, but I do like it's 29.5" size to weight (37lbs) ratio in the 30x9.5.

I'll be watching this thread in the immediate future as a wade through this decision.


For the 1st time with my jeep I'm thinking I should keep the lift, mostly cause 2/3 of the bolts that hold it on will snap if attempted to be removed, scrap the re-gear, but more importantly purchase the tire that suits me and my 3.07 jeeps needs. Slightly smaller and lighter than the 29.5" silent armor, capable on road, but good in snow/mud and rocks is where I'm headed.


Cheers All

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Unread 11-15-2013, 02:17 AM   #347
Charley3
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To JPGoody:

Re 30 x 9.5 R15 tire you are interested in. It's an ideal size for your situation, IMO. Next choice 235/75R15. I have done a lot of wheeling on those sizes over 13 years on two XJs and they were great. I've also had 33s on an LJ and frankly I like smaller tires better, though maybe 31 x 9.5 might be my favorite (will try that next). I like smaller tires, and medium tires, because they work great on highway and pretty good off road too, which fits my priorities. For those same reasons ATs fit my priorities.

Duratrac, Cooper AT3, Hercules AT2, and Hankook ATM would all be excellent choices for highway, mud, snow, and wet; but the Cooper AT3 doesn't have enough sipes to be good on ice. Those other 3 are good on ice, as well as highway, mud, snow, and wet. Of those 3, I'm not sure how the Hercules AT2 is on mud, probably OK, but not sure. Hankook ATM is OK on mud. Cooper AT3 and Duratrac are good on mud.

I don't think the Toyo AT2 would be quite as good for mud or snow because it has some slightly interlocking treads (center treads), smaller voids, and you said it has less tread depth (in that size tire.) Toyo AT2 doesn't have enough sipes to be good on ice. So I think Toyo AT2 is defineately out for a snow boarder.

Since Duratrac isn't made in 30 x 9.5 R15, it's out (if you want that size).

So for your needs in 30 x 9.5 R15, I think Hankook ATM or Hercules AT2 are your best choices. They would be adequate on mud, and great at those other things. They are both light enough (in that size), but the Herculese AT2 is lighter and shorter, both of which would help with your gearing situation.

So for you, I recommend Herculese AT2 in 30 x 9.5 R15. I think it's ideally suited for your needs. In that size, I've already compared weights and heights and concluded it's best for your needs. IMO

My second choice for you would be to downsize to 235/75R15. Then your best choices are (in no particular order) Herculese AT2, Hankook ATM, or Duratrac. Any of those would be great for you in that size. In that size, you should compare weights and heights and then choose. Keep in mind that Duratrac would be best of those 3 for mud because of its knobbier tread, but that also increases rolling resistance, which is bad for power and gas mileage. So pick yer poison there. Less knobby or more knobby? The Herculese AT2 and Hankook ATM are what I'd call slightly knobby (which is what I prefer for a daily driver that sees some offroad).

The Cooper AT3 is slightly knobbier that Herc AT2 or Hank ATM, which I love about the Cooper AT3. I think the Cooper AT3 is the perfect balance of just knobby enough, but not to much. Unfortuneately the AT3 doesn't have enough sipes for ice traction. So a guy has to prioritize what's most important.

I don't have a favorite tire for all sizes because no tire is best in all sizes. Which tire is best depends on intended use AND tire size. In one size there might be a best tire (for certain needs) but in another size another tire might be best.

That is why for a given size I recommend a specific tire, but in another size I (might) recommend another tire. Just because a tire is best in one size doesn't mean it's best in another size.
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Unread 11-15-2013, 02:47 AM   #348
Charley3
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JPGoody:

It might also be a good idea to choose a tire that is "Winter Rated" aka "Snow Flake" rated.

I think the Hercules AT2, Hankook ATM, and Duratrac are each Winter Rated. I haven't checked recently, but I think each of those is Winter Rated. I suggest you check into this.

They are certainly Winter capable (whether rated for it or not), but having a Winter rating might get you some preferential treatment by State Patrol when they require traction devices. In many states, Winter Rated tires are accepted by law enforcement as adequate Winter traction devices when traction devices are required.

The Cooper AT3 is NOT Winter rated. Consumer Reports tested AT3 and says it's great for snow and OK for ice, and it never underwent the gov Winter rating tests. Consumer Reports says Hankook ATM and Duratrac are great for snow and ice, and I think they are gov rated for Winter (though not sure about gov Winter rating, you check). Consumer Reports didn't test the Herculese AT2, but I think it may be gov Winter rated. I am certain the Herc AT2 is great for Winter, whether rated for it or not.
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Unread 11-15-2013, 03:03 AM   #349
Charley3
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GPGoody:

I saw in another thread you said you would like a nice light 30x9.5 AT/3 at 29.3" tall for your gearing needs.

That describes Cooper AT3, Mastercraft AXT, and Herculese AT2. All these are made by Cooper and are 1st cousins. They have same carcass and treat compound, but with different tread patterns and different amounts of sipes. These tires in size 30 x 9.5 R15 are light and 29.3" tall.

Mastercraft AXT is very similar to Cooper AT3. Not sure which is better. They do have some interesting differences in tread, if you look closely. Mastercraft is a subsidiary company owned by Cooper. Mastercraft tires are manufactured in USA by Cooper.

Cooper and Mastercraft are both USA companies.

Hercules AT2 has some tread similarities to Cooper AT3, but also some substantial differences, including way more sipes. More sipes greatly improves Winter traction on packed snow and ice. Hercules is an independent USA tire company that hired Cooper to manufacture the Hercules AT2 (based on Cooper AT3 technology, but with some tread changes created by Hercules). Hercules AT2 is manufactured in USA by Cooper.

See post 326 for weights and heights of the best (IMO) 30 x 9.5 R15 AT tires.
If you want to look up and post the weights and heights of those tires in 235/75R15 I will add that info to post 326.
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Unread 11-15-2013, 05:58 AM   #350
mschi772
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Be careful, Charley. Cooper does manufacture Hercules's tires, but Cooper does not own Hercules; they are partners. Hercules's designs are its own unlike Mastercraft whose designs are essentially Cooper's.

Also, Cooper is no longer a US company. An Indian tire company (Apollo) now owns Cooper.
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Unread 11-15-2013, 05:25 PM   #351
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
Be careful, Charley. Cooper does manufacture Hercules's tires, but Cooper does not own Hercules; they are partners. Hercules's designs are its own unlike Mastercraft whose designs are essentially Cooper's.

Also, Cooper is no longer a US company. An Indian tire company (Apollo) now owns Cooper.
Telling me to be careful sounds condescending. I don't know if you intended to condescend, but it sounds like it.

I said Hercules is an independent tire company that hired Cooper to manufacture Hercules AT2, and Mastercraft is owned by Cooper. Hercules AT2 and Mastercraft AXT certainly do use same carcass as Cooper AT3 and sounds like same tread compound based on their websites' descriptions of compound. That is all correct info.

If Cooper was sold to an Indian company, it's news to me and a recent thing. It was always USA owned for as long as I remember. If it recently sold, that's interesting and thanks for the info.
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Unread 11-16-2013, 09:25 AM   #352
mschi772
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No condescension intended. I believe Goodyear is the last major American tire company. There are others, though. Treadwright comes to mind as a totally American tire company (pretty sure anyway).

Cooper (Mickey Thompson, Mastercraft): Indian
Kumho: Korean
Hankook: Korean
Toyo: Japanese
Yokohama: Japanese
Nokian: Finnish (a Japanese company is largest minority shareholder however)
Bridgestone (Firestone): Japanese
Michelin (BFG): French
Goodyear (Kelly, Dunlop): American

Disclaimer: The above is not an exhaustive list and is accurate to the best of my knowledge on the date of its posting.
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Unread 11-16-2013, 10:24 AM   #353
JPGoody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
No condescension intended. I believe Goodyear is the last major American tire company. There are others, though. Treadwright comes to mind as a totally American tire company (pretty sure anyway).

Cooper (Mickey Thompson, Mastercraft): Indian
Kumho: Korean
Hankook: Korean
Toyo: Japanese
Yokohama: Japanese
Nokian: Finnish (a Japanese company is largest minority shareholder however)
Bridgestone (Firestone): Japanese
Michelin (BFG): French
Goodyear (Kelly, Dunlop): American

Disclaimer: The above is not an exhaustive list and is accurate to the best of my knowledge on the date of its posting.

I only drink local craft brew, F the big 2. Herculese is a tire still made(by cooper) in the USA. For now.......

If only there was a local small batch tire maker. And local growing rubber trees, ha! At least until we can biosynthesize some new organic rubber like materials from other plants that is.
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Unread 11-16-2013, 10:28 AM   #354
JPGoody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPGoody View Post
If only there was a local small batch tire maker. And local growing rubber trees, ha! At least until we can biosynthesize some new organic rubber like materials from other plants that is.
Boom!

http://www.tirebusiness.com/article/...e-rubber-yield
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Unread 11-16-2013, 01:46 PM   #355
jeepjamesw1
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The Goodyear Dura Trac is listed by GY as a "Commercial Traction" tire, but is included in this discussion here. Do you want to include other Commercial traction tires in this thread or is the Dura Trac really an AT tire. I guess Commercial traction tires are kind of a hybrid between the AT and MT tires so some might be more like an AT tire and some closer to a MT tire.
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Unread 11-16-2013, 05:30 PM   #356
ParaRigger
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Where are General tires made?
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Unread 11-16-2013, 08:05 PM   #357
mschi772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaRigger View Post
Where are General tires made?
General is owned by Continental, a German company. General Tire has factories making their tires throughout the US, so they are MADE in the US, but the dollars find their way back to Germany. Many foreign companies have products that are MADE in the US.
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Unread 11-16-2013, 11:37 PM   #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
General is owned by Continental, a German company. General Tire has factories making their tires throughout the US, so they are MADE in the US, but the dollars find their way back to Germany. Many foreign companies have products that are MADE in the US.
Some sizes of Grabbers and Grabber AT2s are made in Mex and Czech. The AT2s on my pickup and Jeep were made in Mex.
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Unread 11-16-2013, 11:43 PM   #359
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepjamesw1 View Post
The Goodyear Dura Trac is listed by GY as a "Commercial Traction" tire, but is included in this discussion here. Do you want to include other Commercial traction tires in this thread or is the Dura Trac really an AT tire. I guess Commercial traction tires are kind of a hybrid between the AT and MT tires so some might be more like an AT tire and some closer to a MT tire.
Thank you! I said the same near beginning of thread and got flamed over and over for speaking the truth. Duratrac is not an AT (even though Goodyear marketing dept calls it an "aggressive AT").

Later on in thread, I decided if some people want to include Duratrac in this thread, then I may as well let them, and later I joined them in including it.

Duratrac is one of the best Commercial Traction tires and IMO strikes a good hybrid compromise between AT and MT. So it's worth including for those reasons and because it's often worth comparing to true ATs. Same with Mastercraft CT.

Those two commercial traction tires are a hybrid midway between AT & MT, IMO. Most other commercial traction tires are closer to AT, and Cooper ST is closer to MT.

So Duratrac and Mastercraft CT are unique do-it-all tires, IMO. I like both of them a lot, but they aren't ATs and they aren't as good on highway as ATs, but they are better on highway than MTs.

The other unique thing about Duratrac is it's Winter abilities exceed most other hybrid/commercial tires, MT, and even exceed many ATs Winter abilities. Another unique thing about Duratrac is more ride comfort than other commercial traction tires and MT.

There are 3 reasons I don't use Duratrac: it's not as smooth or quiet on highway as better ATs, and probably doesn't give as good gas mileage as better ATs, and Duratrac isn't available in 30 x 9.5 R15 (which is size I currently want to use).

Even if I was using a size that Duratrac was available, I'd still prefer one of the best ATs because I drive on highway more than offroad.

However, Duratrac is a great tire for its intended purposes. If I ever want slightly more agressive than AT, I'll get Duratrac.
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Unread 11-17-2013, 12:32 AM   #360
Charley3
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In addition to Mastercraft and Mickey Thompson, Cooper also owns Dick Cepek, Dean, Procomp, and dozens of others that I cannot remember.

Including its subsidiary companies, Cooper is largest tire company in the world.

I didn't know there was enough money in all of India to buy Cooper (with its subsidiaries). Huh.
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