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Unread 10-05-2013, 10:32 PM   #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
I like the mid.

I do think there are substantial differences in performance on some terrains, and minor differences on road. To me, and many people, those differences are important. IMO

I know you prefer the mild. That's good for you because it suits your needs.
Snow and mud are what I consider the major battlegrounds. There USUALLY doesn't seem to be much difference in any other area no matter what tire you're talking about, but when mud and/or snow are considered some tires shine a little more brightly than others.

Yeah, since I never really touch very muddy areas, and a tire need not be aggressive to handle snow well, mild is definitely my realm and one I've been trying to sort-out in the event I find a good enough deal on the wheels I've been looking for. I've even tossed around the idea of going down to the Firestone LE2 since it's actually fairly aggressive for a highway tire; it would probably get me around offroad no worse than an AT would where I go when I go (rarely these days). If I ever do get my wheels, I'll probably just buy dedicated snow tires to mount on my old lace wheels for winter; that's the smartest move, and I won't have to worry about snow performance on my 3-season tires anymore (which will actually re-open a can of worms since I've eliminated some tires based on snow performance).

I've been cramming research tonight and have actually eliminated Pirelli ATR based on sub-par winter performance. Bridgestone REVO 2's continue to lurk on my mind as I haven't ever figured-out what I make of them yet. Yokohama ATS's are also lurking while I continue my efforts to learn more and distill these milder AT tires down.

Regarding "medium" AT tires, Atturo's new AT tire has been on my mind as well. They're made in Taiwan at the same facility that Federal's tires are made (they are independent of Federal though). I wonder how they stack-up against the others. They look VERY similar to Hercules Terra Trac A/T (not the new A/T II).


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Unread 10-06-2013, 03:26 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
Snow and mud are what I consider the major battlegrounds. There USUALLY doesn't seem to be much difference in any other area no matter what tire you're talking about, but when mud and/or snow are considered some tires shine a little more brightly than others.

Yeah, since I never really touch very muddy areas, and a tire need not be aggressive to handle snow well, mild is definitely my realm and one I've been trying to sort-out in the event I find a good enough deal on the wheels I've been looking for. I've even tossed around the idea of going down to the Firestone LE2 since it's actually fairly aggressive for a highway tire; it would probably get me around offroad no worse than an AT would where I go when I go (rarely these days). If I ever do get my wheels, I'll probably just buy dedicated snow tires to mount on my old lace wheels for winter; that's the smartest move, and I won't have to worry about snow performance on my 3-season tires anymore (which will actually re-open a can of worms since I've eliminated some tires based on snow performance).

I've been cramming research tonight and have actually eliminated Pirelli ATR based on sub-par winter performance. Bridgestone REVO 2's continue to lurk on my mind as I haven't ever figured-out what I make of them yet. Yokohama ATS's are also lurking while I continue my efforts to learn more and distill these milder AT tires down.

Regarding "medium" AT tires, Atturo's new AT tire has been on my mind as well. They're made in Taiwan at the same facility that Federal's tires are made (they are independent of Federal though). I wonder how they stack-up against the others. They look VERY similar to Hercules Terra Trac A/T (not the new A/T II).
Often the same tires that do good on mud do good on deep snow. It's hard packed snow (where cars have driven) and ice that challenge tires that are good on mud. It's really difficult to find a tire that's good enough on mud and ice (and hard packed snow is almost same as ice, IMO).

Hercules Terra Trac AT and Cooper ATP have same or similar tread, IMO.

I think Hankook ATM (lots of sipes) and Hercules AT2 would fill your needs well, IMO. The only thing about them that doesn't fit your needs is they have more rolling resistance than an AS (All Season), but other than that, they do what you want.

If those aren't your cup of tea, then perhaps look at snow flake rated AS tires.
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Unread 10-06-2013, 05:38 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
Often the same tires that do good on mud do good on deep snow. It's hard packed snow (where cars have driven) and ice that challenge tires that are good on mud. It's really difficult to find a tire that's good enough on mud and ice (and hard packed snow is almost same as ice, IMO).

Hercules Terra Trac AT and Cooper ATP have same or similar tread, IMO.

I think Hankook ATM (lots of sipes) and Hercules AT2 would fill your needs well, IMO. The only thing about them that doesn't fit your needs is they have more rolling resistance than an AS (All Season), but other than that, they do what you want.

If those aren't your cup of tea, then perhaps look at snow flake rated AS tires.
Yeah, deep snow and mud are very similar from the perspective of a tire, but a tire need not be good in mud to be good in snow. There are lots of tires that are fantastic in snow that I'd never take within a mile of mud for fear of getting stuck .

Herc AT2 (the AT1 is being phased-away anyhow) looks good, but as a company, they've made some odd decisions such as having their All Trac AT made in China. Those All Trac ATs had to be recalled because of blow-out and separation issues--scary stuff. I digress--the Herc AT2's have really been on my mind a lot; Herc loves their siping, so I'd hope they'd handle winters really well. Hank ATMs are clearly sitting alongside the Coops and likely Toyos on the throne of do-all ATs, and I may yet go with one of the three in the future, but I may not need to go so aggressive. That's why I've been really scrutinizing the milder ATs lately since they get far less attention.

My Kumhos are really impressive, but [theoretical] compromises for cosmetics (that I think look cheesey) is a shame. I still highly recommend them to anyone who isn't bothered by such insignificant nit-picks. They're not really as mild-looking in person as they are in photos either; they're actually pretty similar to Falkens without weighing a ton and having compound grip issues. I don't have my own photo of them, but here is a pic I found that I feel represents them better than most http://www.355nation.net/forum/attac...vo-2-tires.jpg

The final form of my XJ is still in flux, and being the anal guy that I am, that has a ripple effect even down to which wheels and tires I'll want. Lately I'm leaning toward just slapping some minimum-sized OME leaves in the back and seeing if the rake will be bearable; I'm hoping so to see if the rake helps the MPG's. If my front end remains stock height, I don't think I'll be going to 17" wheels, and I may lean slightly more aggressive with my tire choice then, too.

I've got a list and a bunch of notes being compiled as I slowly eliminate tires and sculpt my own robust short list of tires. It's a lot slower-going that other categories as I've mentioned that AT tires are really similar and competitive--differences are relatively small between many of them.

Some of them are pretty easy to eliminate. Herc All Trac AT, Cooper ST (they have some fans, but I'm wholly unconvinced), Mastercraft Courser AT (especially in light of the AXT), recently the Pirelli ATR, Falken AT (some people love them, but I think they're crazy and/or far too loyal)...The eye of Sauron (hi, I'm a nerd) has been gazing at Kelly Safari TSR most recently demanding it to justify its existence given the supremacy of the Duratrac.

The Kellys are nice tire, but I'm trying to trim the fat, and I don't think they're going to make it; Michelin LTX AT2s are nice as well, but that Michelin-sized price tag (I have the same Michelin-price dilemma with the LTX MS2's and whether to keep them on my list of highway tires or not)! I may pit the Michelins and Silent armors against each other to see if I can "Thunderdome" one of them off my list. (I still can't for the life of me understand how either of these are so good as AT tires since they look so mild, but they are). Honestly, I may eliminate both of them as I just have his nagging feeling that their designs are a bit old and dead ends evolutionarily speaking. Neither tire is bad, but with the Coop/Hank/Toyo/Duratrac titans looming over them, I'm not sure there's really a place for them other than the honorable mention category.
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Unread 10-08-2013, 01:55 PM   #289
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You've listed what I think are the best ATs (Cooper AT3, Hercules AT2, Hankook ATM, Toyo AT2), and I'd have to add the Grabber AT2, if you can overlook its harsh/bumpy ride quality. Also the Silent Armor and its sibling the GY Adventurer (they aren't my cup of tea, but they have a loyal following - so they must be good).

Since you are thinking most ATs are a bit to aggressive for you (I think they're perfect), let me point out something about the Toyo AT2.
It's really not one tire. It's a family of 3 tires with 3 different tread depths, and sizes of voids. Whenever I refer to Toyo AT2, I am referring to it's LT version, which has an intermediate level of aggressiveness that I prefer. However, there are 2 other versions. The P version is less aggressive (possibly your dream tire), and the Extreme version is more aggressive (what I'd call a hybrid tire).
So maybe the Toyo AT2 P-rated version is what you should be looking at. That or a Hankook ATM P-rated or Hercules AT2 P-rated.

The Toyo AT2 P-rated has smaller voids and less tread depth than its LT rated sibling.

The Hankook ATM P-rated has same voids and less tread depth than its LT rated sibling.

The Hercules AT2 P-rated has same voids and less tread depth than its LT rated sibling.

All 3 have lots of sipes for wet and Winter tractions. Based on reviews I've read, I'm sure the Hankook ATM and Hercules AT2 are great on wet and Winter conditions. I have not seen enough reviews of Toyo AT2 to say anything, except that it looks like it'd be good on Winter conditions (at least the LT and Xtreme versions, no idea about P version).

You should also seriously consider Silent Armor or GY Adventurer since you like less aggressive ATs. Those look less aggressive to me, and they are good.

On an interesting note, neither of us would consider BFG AT. I owned 2 sets of them in past, and liked them, but these other tires seem better to me, and most of them cost less too.
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Unread 10-08-2013, 02:38 PM   #290
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The BFG AT is an easy elimination in my opinion. It doesn't do anything better than any other tire, and if you really want the old-school jack of all trades thing (or a tire great for the dry and rocky southwest) then the General AT2 does all the BFG does for much cheaper.

There's a very good chance I'll stick to the Kumho SATs if my wheel size changes. I just like trying new things, and a wheel size change would just be an opportunity to do that, but I'm completely satisfied by the Kumhos (except the cosmetics). I'm also done assuming they'd be terrible in mud and will give them a shot at it when I have the chance. Even my p225/75r15s are fairly aggressive in some regards that weren't immediately apparent, and there are other tires that defy assumptions, so I'm just going to see for myself.

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Unread 10-08-2013, 09:36 PM   #291
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The BFG AT is an easy elimination in my opinion. It doesn't do anything better than any other tire, and if you really want the old-school jack of all trades thing (or a tire great for the dry and rocky southwest) then the General AT2 does all the BFG does for much cheaper.

There's a very good chance I'll stick to the Kumho SATs if my wheel size changes. I just like trying new things, and a wheel size change would just be an opportunity to do that, but I'm completely satisfied by the Kumhos (except the cosmetics). I'm also done assuming they'd be terrible in mud and will give them a shot at it when I have the chance. Even my p225/75r15s are fairly aggressive in some regards that weren't immediately apparent, and there are other tires that defy assumptions, so I'm just going to see for myself.
So your recent research and lengthy posts were just mental masturbation? You're just going to stay with Kumho all season tires?

For your mud test: Bring a friend and another vehicle, or a friend and winch. Also, I doubt any brand/model tire can be effective in mud when 225/75R15.

I think 235/75R15 is the bare minimum for getting frisky off road. 30 x 9.5 R15 is much better. That's not theory. It's experience. I've attempted to wheel 225 with poor results. I've wheeled 235 a lot with mostly good results. I've wheeled 30 with good results.

The other thing about 30's is they are largest that gives good gas mileage, IME. They are also largest that fits a stock XJ.

That combination is why I love 30s, but if you want to be more conservative 235/75R15 are good too, and get really good gas mileage, IME.

I don't think any brand of 225/75R15 tire will be satisfactory off road.
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Unread 10-09-2013, 05:17 AM   #292
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So your recent research and lengthy posts were just mental masturbation? You're just going to stay with Kumho all season tires? For your mud test: Bring a friend and another vehicle, or a friend and winch. Also, I doubt any brand/model tire can be effective in mud when 225/75R15. I think 235/75R15 is the bare minimum for getting frisky off road. 30 x 9.5 R15 is much better. That's not theory. It's experience. I've attempted to wheel 225 with poor results. I've wheeled 235 a lot with mostly good results. I've wheeled 30 with good results. The other thing about 30's is they are largest that gives good gas mileage, IMO. They are also largest that fits a stock XJ. That combination is why I love 30s, but if you want to be more conservative 235/75R15 are good too, and get really good gas mileage, IMO. I don't think any brand of 225/75R15 tire will be satisfactory off road.
I'm simply never going to stuff 30's under a stock XJ (unless it's in preparation for a future lift). Not going to happen; it looks too full to me and adds unnecessary weight for little to no real pay-off.

Obviously if I ever do a mud test, recovery will be around; I'm not dumb enough to experiment without a safety net. 225's aren't ideal, but it doesn't matter. I'm not planning on being a "mudder"--just testing their performance if the opportunity ever presents itself. I would have to disagree with you that 225's can't be satisfactory offroad. With the exception of extreme conditions, in more mundane offroading, I've not seen any situation where I thought to myself "If only my tire was 0.5" wider and 1.5" taller this would be so much easier." It's fine if that's where you draw the line, but I respect the capabilities of a stock XJ--it's better than most people around here give it credit for (mostly because they'll mod an XJ before ever even seeing what a stock one can do). Now you might need more from your XJ and larger tires to air down with being in the mountains, but around the Lakes, not so extreme especially for a guy like me who doesn't wheel for the sake of it alone.

It's more than "mental masturbation." Adding to my experience and research allows me to be better informed for others when seeking my help. It also allows me to be better informed when facing my own decisions. The opportunity to change tires hasn't presented itself and may not for a long time. It won't happen unless my tires wear-out (which will not be for another ~50k miles) or if I get differently-sized wheels. Even then, I MIGHT stay with the Kumhos, but that doesn't mean that all my testing with other people's vehicles and research will have been for nothing especially if it served to convince me further of the Kumhos' superiority in their niche.
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Unread 10-09-2013, 05:45 AM   #293
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I think it's funny that you guys are arguing over 225s and 235s. Toyota Camry's have taller tires from the factory now days and get better gas mileage. My opinion is that when you're talking 28-30" tires, brand and tread pattern and rubber compounds don't matter anymore because they ALL suck in snow, mud, offroad, etc. That's just too small to be effective at any terrain that's rugged. Today's SUVs are coming with 32 and 33" tires from the factory and get better MPGs than the XJ ever would. It's time to move to the 21st century fellas....
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Unread 10-09-2013, 05:52 AM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WXman
I think it's funny that you guys are arguing over 225s and 235s. Toyota Camry's have taller tires from the factory now days and get better gas mileage. My opinion is that when you're talking 28-30" tires, brand and tread pattern and rubber compounds don't matter anymore because they ALL suck in snow, mud, offroad, etc. That's just too small to be effective at any terrain that's rugged. Today's SUVs are coming with 32 and 33" tires from the factory and get better MPGs than the XJ ever would. It's time to move to the 21st century fellas....
Reminds me of all the 26 vs 29 inch wheel drama in mt biking.

So because new cars are designed to run larger tires from the factory now, I should spend 1000s of dollars to put my 96 XJ on 33s and regear? Flawed argument on multiple ways especially where you seem to credit larger tire size for providing better MPG.

No, I won't be regearing/lifting/trimming for 31+, and unless someone can PROVE to me that taller, wider tires have a clear advantage to me, my tire size will remain determined by appropriate look relative to the vehicle, narrowness for snow and mpg, load rating, and weight. It's not like I'm completely against larger tires, but people need to stop reflexively insisting they're better for EVERYONE without demonstrating clearly why. I mean, if my XJ gets bumped up 2+ inches, 30s will be under it simply to maintain a proper look, but I and many others get told to slap 30s under a stock XJ with no explanation better than "because they fit (and bigger tires are cooler, right)."

This is a digression from the topic of this thread I never intended. I was merely contributing my thoughts, findings, musings to the thread for the sake of discussion, but fussing about tire size was neither my intent, the topic of this thread, nor something I asked for input on.

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Unread 10-09-2013, 06:29 PM   #295
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Reminds me of all the 26 vs 29 inch wheel drama in mt biking.

So because new cars are designed to run larger tires from the factory now, I should spend 1000s of dollars to put my 96 XJ on 33s and regear? Flawed argument on multiple ways especially where you seem to credit larger tire size for providing better MPG.

No, I won't be regearing/lifting/trimming for 31+, and unless someone can PROVE to me that taller, wider tires have a clear advantage to me, my tire size will remain determined by appropriate look relative to the vehicle, narrowness for snow and mpg, load rating, and weight. It's not like I'm completely against larger tires, but people need to stop reflexively insisting they're better for EVERYONE without demonstrating clearly why. I mean, if my XJ gets bumped up 2+ inches, 30s will be under it simply to maintain a proper look, but I and many others get told to slap 30s under a stock XJ with no explanation better than "because they fit (and bigger tires are cooler, right)."

This is a digression from the topic of this thread I never intended. I was merely contributing my thoughts, findings, musings to the thread for the sake of discussion, but fussing about tire size was neither my intent, the topic of this thread, nor something I asked for input on.

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I never said larger tires get better MPGs. What I said was that today's SUVs have larger tires AND get better MPGs. So, it is therefore sad if you have to run a tiny car-size tire on your 4x4 in order to maintain it's efficiency.

I've seen XJs with 30s (actually did a full front axle swap on one two weeks ago) and they look fine but 31s and up look a lot better and the performance increase is amazing once you finally put a decent size tire on there. With 29" tall tires you simply aren't going to do anything in deep snow or mud or any rock gardens, period. So arguing over which is better between 225 and 235 is like arguing over whether pink or green kool-aid tastes better. It's all moot.

Let's carry on and try to restore some coherent thought to this thread. It's gotten to where it's jumping all over the place.
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Unread 10-09-2013, 08:31 PM   #296
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I never said larger tires get better MPGs. What I said was that today's SUVs have larger tires AND get better MPGs. So, it is therefore sad if you have to run a tiny car-size tire on your 4x4 in order to maintain it's efficiency.
Do those same modern vehicles have a straight 6 originally designed in the 1960's powering them? Do they have solid axles, a transmission that has less than ideal shift points, and 4wd? Has every other fuel efficiency technology created after (in this case) 1996 been removed from them? Flawed argument, WXman. Additionally, efficiency is merely one of multiple reasons my choice is what it is.

We were back-and-forthing about 28" vs 30" anyway, not 225 vs 235. Plenty of people fuss over a 2" difference in tire size among the larger tires (31 vs 33 or 33 vs 35 or 35 vs 37). Because we're talking "dorky" stock sizes, we're not allowed to compare and contrast like all the "cool" wheelers with their bigger tires? My XJ MIGHT see deep snow...maybe if I can't help it for some reason. It will never see deep mud, and you're kidding yourself completely if you think invoking rock gardens has ANY relevance to me or anyone else deliberately running stock(ish) sized tires. If you have nothing to contribute to a discussion or simply don't want to, then stay out of it. If you contribution is that you feel there is absolutely zero reason for any XJ to ever be on a tire smaller than 30" (for example; not my intention to put words in your mouth), then let's hear it without the straw men and dismissive tone.

Let's talk about what's sad. Sad is how often I'm dismissed or even patronized by "real Jeepers" because of informed and calculated decisions to keep my vehicle closer to its original design.

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Let's carry on and try to restore some coherent thought to this thread. It's gotten to where it's jumping all over the place.
Mostly because virtually all that there is to say on the subject has been said already, but I was trying to do my part to keep the thread on topic by contributing some thoughts and other mind-wanderings...that got derailed.
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Unread 10-09-2013, 10:22 PM   #297
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I think it's funny that you guys are arguing over 225s and 235s. Toyota Camry's have taller tires from the factory now days and get better gas mileage. My opinion is that when you're talking 28-30" tires, brand and tread pattern and rubber compounds don't matter anymore because they ALL suck in snow, mud, offroad, etc. That's just too small to be effective at any terrain that's rugged. Today's SUVs are coming with 32 and 33" tires from the factory and get better MPGs than the XJ ever would. It's time to move to the 21st century fellas....
My XJ can do a lot off road with 30s and can probably out do most new SUVs off road. Though I do plan to run 31 x 9.5 in future since I now have a mild lift.

I've seen XJs with 30s & 31s go places other SUVs (including Wranglers) with larger tires struggled. I've owned 2 XJs and 1 LJ Rubicon. I've had DD Jeeps and wheeled with 29, 30, 31, and 33.

XJs with 30s & 31s are my favorites for DD because good enough off road and great on road. 33s just aren't good enough on road for my DD needs.
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Unread 10-09-2013, 10:33 PM   #298
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As someone said, there isn't any more on topic things to say in this thread, until someone posts new info about Toyo AT2 after using them on more terrains, or posts about some other new tire.

We don't need to make off topic posts to keep this thread going. It's OK to let the thread die down. I'd rather have it die down than go chronically off topic.

No need to try to keep it going. It'll naturally get active again in the future when someone has new on topic info about a new tire.
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Unread 10-11-2013, 11:02 PM   #299
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Didnt find a buck but did get into a bit deeper mud. Still impressed with the at2

And x2 on the Cherokee being a capable vehicle bone stock. It's really all most people need
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Unread 10-12-2013, 07:25 PM   #300
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Didnt find a buck but did get into a bit deeper mud. Still impressed with the at2

And x2 on the Cherokee being a capable vehicle bone stock. It's really all most people need
To anyone reading this, he's referring to his Toyo AT2 235/75R15 on his XJ.

How deep was the mud?

Hard slick mud, or deeper goey mud, or deeper wet mud? Details please.

Were you in 2wd or 4wd? (I noticed your sig says you have limited slil rear-end)

Level, uphill?

How much did you spin, if any?

Were your tires aired down?
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