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Unread 05-26-2013, 02:13 AM   #16
Charley3
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I don't normally recommend Cooper ST Maxx because its treads have very hard rubber, which is very slick on hard packed snow and ice in my Northern climate. It might also be a bit slick on wet pavement.

However, that same hard rubber would be ideal for durability on very hot pavement in hot climates. The tread will last a really long time.

So in a hot dry climate, it'd be a great AT tire.

IMO

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Unread 05-26-2013, 10:03 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
As an added bonus it is available in 33 x 10.5 R15, a great size that's hard to find.
Can you show me where this size is available? It is not listed on the Cooper website.
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Unread 05-26-2013, 01:16 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by tjkj2002 View Post
Why even bother with AT's?

I use Firestones Destion MT's as my street tires to save my Goodyear MT/R K's for offroad.But then again 35" AT's just look stupid anyways.
...The subject of the thread is AT tires so your post is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I appreciate the extra research, effort and input Charley3 & mschi772 put into answering the questions about tires that appear daily: they're always civil about it even if they're not staff/moderators so kudos guys.

I read more threads, forums, tire reviews and went to local tire shops to eyeball and touch the damn things than sit around asking questions on the web. Took me three months of research before I made the decision for new tires. The list is a good one that could help folks with the decision to drop + $600.00 dollars.



but at least you did not throw in the obligatory 'BFG AT/MT are the best' remark that always leads the snipe hunt.
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Unread 05-26-2013, 03:07 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by ParaRigger View Post
Can you show me where this size is available? It is not listed on the Cooper website.
That was the Firestone Destination AT I was referring to. A great AT, IMO. Good price too.

The ATs available in 33 x 10.5 R15 are:

Firestone Destination AT

BFG AT

---

Also, General Grabber too. It's not an AT or an MT. It's sort of a hybrid made for prerunning racing. Have tire store add sipes to center treads and it'd be a great hybrid IMO. The only downside is it's a very tough tire with stiff sidewalls that rides rough. You'd feel every bump. Otherwise a great tire (with added sipes). IMO

Note: I'm referring to Grabber, not Grabber AT2.
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Unread 05-26-2013, 07:15 PM   #20
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Ive had problems with both Cooper and Good for a years tires standing behind any problems with their tire --BFG has always been good to me and will always have my business--rant OFF
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Unread 05-26-2013, 07:46 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by 11B-33T View Post

but at least you did not throw in the obligatory 'BFG AT/MT are the best' remark that always leads the snipe hunt.
You couldn't pay me to put on anything michelin makes as far as tires,total junk.
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Unread 05-26-2013, 10:38 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by VietVet67 View Post
Ive had problems with both Cooper and Good for a years tires standing behind any problems with their tire --BFG has always been good to me and will always have my business--rant OFF
I've not had any problems with Cooper or Goodyear tires. I have had problems with two BFG AT tires, but BFG did stand behind their warranty and replaced them. So no complaints.

I've had good experiences with all 3 of those brands, and Hankook too. Also had good luck with Uniroyal all season tires.
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Unread 05-26-2013, 10:53 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by tjkj2002 View Post
You couldn't pay me to put on anything michelin makes as far as tires,total junk.
It sounds like you are now attempting to start arguments with the BFG lovers and derail this thread.

Your unpleasant attitude, off topic posts, and attempts to start conflicts are troll behaviors. Stop being a troll.

I'm not a BFG lover or hater. I try to be objective.

This thread is about ATs, which is a subject you don't care about. You stated (in your first post) that you only care about MTs.

You have nothing to contribute to this thread about ATs. Go post about MTs in a thread about MTs, where you belong. You'd be happier participating in an MT thread where people might appreciate your input.

Please leave this thread.
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Unread 05-27-2013, 07:14 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkj2002 View Post
Why even bother with AT's?

I use Firestones Destion MT's as my street tires to save my Goodyear MT/R K's for offroad.But then again 35" AT's just look stupid anyways.
This thread isn't about MT tires, it is about ATs. Even though I run Goodyear MT/R tires myself, and my previous two sets of tires were also MT/Rs, they and Mud Terrain type tires aren't for everyone. If you have nothing valid to add regarding All Terrain tires, then this AT oriented isn't the right thread for you.
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Unread 05-27-2013, 03:58 PM   #25
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Lots of great info here. I don't think the Duratrac should be separated into it's own category of "hybrid" though. I haven't ever heard of "hybrid" tires as being an actual type of tire (just maybe a way of describing a tire that's aggressive looking for an A/T or very good at off-road and on-raod driving for an A/T). It's still an All Terrain. I've done a lot of research on them (just bought a set this weekend for Discount Tire's sale) and I feel like separating them into a category of their own because they can't compare to any other all terrains for highway driving is mostly just speculation or a way to throw out one of the best and most diverse All Terrains just because it's talents are broader than most A/T's (since it's better for off-road use than most).

Aside from the people who have had issues with it (and it does have it's issues, especially if you push it's limits and try to rock crawl it like an M/T, no doubt), most people who have owned it seem to think it's one of the most impressive off-road/on-road tires ever made and a real show of what can be done with modern tire engineering. I've heard that it's got weaker sidewalls and can puncture more easily on rock (but it's also lighter than most LT All Terrains, including the AT3 and Open Country ATII, for instance). That's part of what shows it's designed for the street, as it's designed to ride softly (unlike most MT's) and get better gas mileage with it's light weight. I would think a "hybrid tire" would have sidewall strength and weight somewhere in between an AT and MT. I've also heard that it's difficult to balance in some cases. I suspect this is partly because of it's light weight and a lot of the people that seem to have trouble are using higher flotation sizes, with small wheels and big tires. The less rigid design compared to an MT might be harder to balance for that reason. Regardless, most people don't seem to have trouble getting them balanced and as long as they don't expect it to perform like a full-on MT, owners of this tire tend to rave about it, both on and off road.

It does have a couple of "issues" in certain cases, but I've never heard anything about it being a poor highway tire than other A/T's. Some people say it's a little on the noisy side for an AT, but I've heard a lot more claims that it's very quiet for an AT, especially such an aggressive AT, and handles very well on the road with less noise than other AT's, including the BFG. Especially the people who rotate them religiously and take care of them say they're quiet and great on and off road. Another indicator that it's not really between an AT and MT in any respect other than the fact that it's better off road than most AT's, is the fact that it's considered one of the best wet weather AT's out there, and is one of the few that carries the snowflake symbol for snow/ice/rain performance. It's supposed to be better on ice and snow than most AT's, not in-between AT's and MT's.

I would agree that just by looking at it, it's almost a too good to be true tire if it's supposed to be so aggressive and great off road yet as good or better (in some cases) than average AT's on the highway (and even better in wet weather) AND is soft-riding, light-weight, and quiet (if cared for). But the tons and tons of reviews of it indicate that it lives up to the hype yet does have a couple of "flaws" or trade-offs (none of which seem to give it a reputation of not handling on the highway in the same class as average AT's). I feel like the claim that it doesn't perform as well on the highway as other AT's is kind of made-up (maybe to separate it from other AT's since as an overall tire - in terms of strengths in off-road, on-road, noise, weight, wet-weather performance, etc. - very few AT's could probably compete), and unless I found lots of reviews of it that gave it a reputation of being inferior on the highway and on-road in general (especially enough reports to out-weigh all of the reports that it's actually a great on-road and wet-weather All Terrain), I can't really buy into that and the idea that it should be separated into a category of "hybrid".
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Unread 05-28-2013, 11:44 PM   #26
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The Duratrac is a great tire for sure, but I personally don't consider it an AT.

I consider it a hybrid tire (part AT, part MT), but you can call it an aggressive AT, if you prefer that phrase.

Whatever you call it, it does beat ATs off road, and beats MTs on road.

I personally don't believe Duratrac can compete with ATs on road (a big factor in the AT rankings), but it is a versatile tire that can be used anywhere. That's my personal opinion.

Tire Rack and Consumer Reports both apparently share my opinion because neither of them included Duratrac in their AT rankings. So there was no way I could include it in their AT rankings.

This in no way detracts from the awesome verstile Duratrac. I'm simply saying it shouldn't be classified as an AT because it's not comparable to ATs. Tire Rack and Consumer Reports didn't say that. They simply omitted it from their AT comparisons and rankings while saying nothing about it. Their AT rankings don't even mention it. Why? IMO they don't mention it because it's not an AT.

I think Duratrac is a great tire for people who want more aggressive than AT, and less aggressive than MT.
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Unread 05-29-2013, 12:25 AM   #27
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Tire Rack does not consider Duratrac to be an AT. So they don't include or rank it among ATs.

Look here at Tire Rack's AT rankings:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/survey....jsp?type=ORAT

Duratrac is not present among Tire Rack's AT rankings.

---

Tire Rack considers it to be a commercial traction tire, which is what the tire industry calls it. I call it hybrid because it's a good description.

Look here at Tire Rack's commercial tire rankings:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/survey....jsp?type=ORCT

Tire Rack ranks Duratrac #1 commercial traction tire.
GY marketing calls it an aggressive AT (even though it's not an AT) because most 4x4 enthusiasts are not familiar with the phrase "commercial traction" or "hybrid". So GY marketing call it "aggressive AT" so enthisiasts will take an interest in it (and that sells tires, doesn't it?). Good marketing by using incorrect terminology that's easier for new enthisiasts to understand. Hats off to GY marketing.
---

Consumer Reports doesn't test or rate it at all because they don't consider it an AT, and they don't rate commercial traction tires.
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Unread 05-29-2013, 01:01 AM   #28
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Duratracs best on road performance features that are commonly cited are light weight, quiet, and good on wet pavement.

Let's look at those claims.

Light weight? Yes, it much lighter than MTs and weighs approx same as ATs. That is a huge accomplishment for Goodyear to make a tire this aggressive, reasonably tough, and still keep it light. That is an impressive feat of engineering.

Ride quality? Yes, it rides softer and smoother than MT; but the best AT ride softer and smoother. However, I do give credit to Duratrac for riding good. However, some best ATs have excellent ride.

Quiet on road? Yes, it is quiet compared to MT. Not so quiet compared to best AT.

Good wet pavement traction? Yes, it has better wet pavement traction than MT, and comparable to best AT.

Good hydroplaing restance? Yes! Its hydroplaning resistance is excellent, but the best ATs are good too.

Good snow and ice traction? Yes! Its snow and ice traction are excellent, but a few of the best ATs are also excellent.

Dry traction, cornering-handling, noise, rolling resistance (gas mileage) the Duratrac is good compared to MTs, but most (perhaps all) ATs are better in those areas.

A Duratrac is good on road for a moderately aggressive tire, but most ATs are better on road.

---

Off road the Duratrac beats ATs at most things, except sand. For sand I'd bet on any AT.
I think my Cooper AT3 would surprise you at how good it is off road, including some mud. Likewise Hankook ATM, Toyo AT2, General Grabber AT2, and a few other ATs would probably surprise you at how good they are off road, including some mud. My Cooper AT3 have impressed me on hard slick wet clay going up a very steep windy "road". My Cooper AT3 actually did better than my cousin's Toyo MT. I haven't tried my Cooper AT3 in deep mud, but reviews say they can handle 12" of goo.

In closing, I never said Duratrac isn't good. It is excellent (when you want something between AT & MT), but it's not an AT, and it can't compete on road with an AT. I give Duratrac credit for being better on road than any other tire with that level of semi-aggressive tread.

Duratrac is the best commercial traction (hybrid) tire on road, and I think it's one of the two best off road. The Mastercraft Courser CT being the other best commercial traction (hybrid) tire off road.
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Unread 05-29-2013, 05:02 AM   #29
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I think my Cooper AT3 would surprise you at how good it is off road, including some mud. Likewise Hankook ATM, Toyo AT2, General Grabber AT2, and a few other ATs would probably surprise you at how good they are off road, including some mud.
I don't mean to pick apart your info because it's all solid, but you make all of your statements as if you have personal experience with each tire in every situation you speak of. Have you really personally experienced all of these tires in all of these situations? I mean, don't you have a back problem that made you reject Grabber AT2 because they road too rough for you on the road? If your injury is that severe, have you really gone wheeling with all of these tires?

I'm guilty of it at times as well because it can be quicker/easier to relay info in this way, but if you don't actually have first-hand experience with something, try to be more transparent about the source of your info. I'm going to be making a better effort in the future to better explain what is firsthand knowledge and what it simply data/evaluation compiled from research.
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Unread 05-29-2013, 01:42 PM   #30
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I have substantial first hand experience wheeling an earlier version of Cooper AT on a prior XJ. I wheeled with those tires for 12 years before they wore out. I wheeled them on all terrains.

I have first hand experience wheeling BFG AT on a prior XJ and an LJ.

I have first hand experience wheeling Cooper STs before and after adding extra sipes to center treads. Those are commercial traction aka hybrid tires.

I have witnessed my cousin wheeling his Toyo MTs on the same places I have wheeled mine.

I got some first hand experience with General Grabber AT2 on steep bumpy gravel roads and steep hard wet slick muddy roads, and a little snow and ice on a trip up a local mountain.
My back problems didn't get really bad until last few years. Even now I off road at least once a week (back problems or not) because my cousin lives in a rural area that requires some off roading to visit him every week. Since my back problems got bad, I stopped wheeling for fun, but I still wheel out of neccesity once a week.

After I get my softer suspension and ZJ seats installed, I will hopefully have enough comfort to start actively seeking out wheeling opportunities again and having fun! Until then, I will only wheel when I have to (once a week).
I just tried my Cooper AT3 on hard slick mud earlier this week, and have tried it on steep tight turning gravel roads many times.

Which, FYI, my Cooper AT3 did better on a wet slick hard clay STEEP "road" than my cousin's Toyo MTs on the same road in same wet conditions. I did it in 2wd. He has to us 4wd.

Over 30 years, I have owned and wheeled many brands of tires on steep rough rock roads, steep hard slick mud roads, sand, snow (deep sometimes, hard packed other times), ice, and some mild rock crawling (though I try to avoid rocks AMAP). Now that I have back problems I am trying to avoid wheeling ASAP, but to visit my cousin and his kids I have to do some wheeling each week, even when my back hurts and I'd rather stay on smooth pavement. Though we don't have much smooth pavement here (poorly maintained roads).
So now, just because I have back problems last few years, my 30+ years experience with tires and off roading no longer counts? Is that what you're saying? Most of that experience was prior to back problems. The experience I have aquired since having back problems has increased my appreciation for good ride quality tires, but that doesn't discredit me. It just makes me more picky about ride quality.

If you were injured today and had back problems for the rest of your life, would that make all of your prior experience irrelevant? Would it make all your future experience irrelevant?

What would you think of someone who suggested that because you're phyically handicapped you don't know what you're talking about?
I have not owned all brands of tires. No one has. That's why 4x4 mags, Tire Rack, and Consumer Reports have reviews, and why I made a thread that includes as much of their info as possible, and I think I was clear about that.

Some of what I write is from first hand experience. Some is from researching reviews. No one has owned aol brands of AT. So the only way to compare them all is to rely on the only sources that have tried most of them, Tire Rack and Consumer Reports.

Keep in mind Mschi, you did get flamed a little once earlier in this thread, but not by me. I have never said anything against you. I think you and I do as good as possible at helping new people with AT choices.

Please also note that I have tried to be unbiased as possible by not pushing any one tire. I don't care what people choose. I just want to provide some info to help them choose.

Lastly, I did state in the OP which AT tires I have personally used, as well as discuss rankings from various reviewers, and I stated when I was talking about reviews.
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