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Unread 09-20-2013, 05:16 PM   #241
Wheelin98TJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WXman
.... But MTs are terrible for sand because that's one terrain where you do not want to dig in and bite.
Boggers do really well on the sand around here.

Maybe not an "MT" by some people's standards, but I'd call it a mud tire.

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Unread 09-20-2013, 06:54 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by WXman View Post
For the guy asking about sand.. wider is better. But MTs are terrible for sand because that's one terrain where you do not want to dig in and bite.
Guess you never heard of paddle tires,or the poor man's paddle tires which are Interco Boggers.Best mud and sand tires you can buy,granted you need some big HP to use them to there full potential.
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Unread 09-21-2013, 11:38 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by tjkj2002 View Post
Guess you never heard of paddle tires,or the poor man's paddle tires which are Interco Boggers.Best mud and sand tires you can buy,granted you need some big HP to use them to there full potential.
Yes, agreed, but boggers are TERRIBLE on road. So I could never consider a bogger.

I know you guys know that, but I wanted to say it here for newbies who visit thread.

To me, a tire has to be good on road before I care what else it can do. That is why I prefer all terrain tires.

(See how cleverly and diplomatically I brought us back on topic? All terrain tires.)
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Unread 09-21-2013, 12:42 PM   #244
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Yeah I agree with Charley3, with my WJ being a DD the first thing I'm looking for in an AT is how good is it on the road, mainly how bad is the road noise.

I doubt I'll ever have this thing in any really deep mud holes or climbing rocks. I'll be on some pretty easy going trails and driving around my property in some pretty deep sugar sand....The deal on that is we had a pretty big wildfire in my neck of the woods a few years ago and there's still a lot of cleanup left to do on the place so I'll be using it as something to keep my tools in, hooking up to trees we've had to cut down and pulling them out and stuff like that. I'll need something that can get enough grip to pull stuff like that out and not get myself buried in the process.
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Unread 09-21-2013, 06:55 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
Yes, agreed, but boggers are TERRIBLE on road. So I could never consider a bogger.

I know you guys know that, but I wanted to say it here for newbies who visit thread.

To me, a tire has to be good on road before I care what else it can do. That is why I prefer all terrain tires.

(See how cleverly and diplomatically I brought us back on topic? All terrain tires.)
Guess we just disagree.I only pick tires for what I want them to do offroad.I ran cut boggers for years(every small lug cutout) on my '84 CUCV Blazer,spooled front and rear,and yes daily drove it for a few months.Great hunting vehicle,only rolled twice
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Unread 09-22-2013, 12:33 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by JeepNowski View Post
Yeah I agree with Charley3, with my WJ being a DD the first thing I'm looking for in an AT is how good is it on the road, mainly how bad is the road noise.

I doubt I'll ever have this thing in any really deep mud holes or climbing rocks. I'll be on some pretty easy going trails and driving around my property in some pretty deep sugar sand....The deal on that is we had a pretty big wildfire in my neck of the woods a few years ago and there's still a lot of cleanup left to do on the place so I'll be using it as something to keep my tools in, hooking up to trees we've had to cut down and pulling them out and stuff like that. I'll need something that can get enough grip to pull stuff like that out and not get myself buried in the process.
My Cooper AT3 are the quietest on road of any ATs I've ever used. They're excellent on road, and good off road. They are even surprisingly good in mud (for an AT).

I drove up hill through 4" deep mud in 2wd (open diff) without spinning! That was driving forwards.

When I came to some muddy boulders and large stumps that said "don't try it", I got out to check it out. My shoes almost got sucked off. I was barely able to retain my shoes. I got back in to my stock XJ (30" tires).

Because of the boulders and stumps ahead, I had to back out through the mud. When I tried to back up, I finally started spinning. I put it in 4wd and then easily backed out without spinning.

I estimate my Cooper AT3 30" tires could handle 6 to 8" deep mud in 4wd without spinning.

That's awesome for a quiet AT. I don't understand how these mild looking tires are so good in mud. It's a mystery to me, but my experience is not a fluke. Many people on the Interweb have reported that these tires are reasonably capable in mud. That's an accomplishment for an AT.
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Unread 09-23-2013, 08:17 AM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
I don't understand how these mild looking tires are so good in mud. It's a mystery to me, but my experience is not a fluke. Many people on the Interweb have reported that these tires are reasonably capable in mud. That's an accomplishment for an AT.
I think it's because first of all the tread is aligned in more of a ribbed pattern and this lets the circumferential grooves around the tire do their jobs, unlike most AT's that pretty much have solid contact patch from the edge to the center. And also, the 2nd row of tread blocks is broken up into groups of large open blocks which is also unique for modern ATs. This lets the tire work similarly to a mud tire.

Will the AT3 do as well as a MT in the mud? Of course not. But you can look at this tire and tell that it was designed to be superior in every condition and terrain.
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Unread 09-26-2013, 03:23 PM   #248
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I think this may be the best thread to ask my question in. I've been through the Stickys and several other threads and this thread seems to come closest to offering advice for my situation. I need new tires for my F150 (not my YJ). Unfortunately I'm going to see everything from alkali snot roads, fine sand, and some rocky but shallow mud... that's my mile long driveway before I hit the super icy roads to town. From what I read, I could use a few different tires in the same day. The local tire shop says that they sell a ton of Mastercraft Courser MT/Rs around here, but I'm thinking that these would be mostly on the rancher's vehicles who would deal with mud and ice but maybe not the heavy sand so much (I'm in the high desert). My truck currently has factory installed Goodrich Rugged Trail T/A 75 R17s which are pretty lame. I'm on a budget (naturally) and have a brand new spare and would rather buy four new tires and keep the spare and rims I have if possible. I'd like to spend $150-$175 but would spend more if I have to for the right tires. Any suggestions will be very appreciated. Also, I tow a horse trailer on these BLM back roads at times.
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Unread 09-26-2013, 06:24 PM   #249
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What's an alkali snot road?
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Unread 09-26-2013, 06:59 PM   #250
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From fine sand to lots of ice in one trip? Wow, that's some crazy terrain over there.

I'm almost leaning toward something like the Cooper Discoverer ST Maxx for his uses. Rocks, sand, heavy towing, rough terrain, but still needs some winter traction... sounds like a commercial traction tire is his best bet.
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Unread 09-26-2013, 07:38 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
What's an alkali snot road?
Pardon the expression. 'Snot' refers to the texture of the Alkali clay flats that are found in the desert around here when it rains. We are in the high desert-- sand, mud, clay and pretty cold winter temps, below freezing at night.

I'd really like to buy tires that makes sense.
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Unread 09-26-2013, 07:43 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by WXman View Post
From fine sand to lots of ice in one trip? Wow, that's some crazy terrain over there.

I'm almost leaning toward something like the Cooper Discoverer ST Maxx for his uses. Rocks, sand, heavy towing, rough terrain, but still needs some winter traction... sounds like a commercial traction tire is his best bet.
It's a pretty interesting climate and place for sure.

Thank you for the suggestion. I'm looking it up now.
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Unread 09-27-2013, 03:02 AM   #253
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I'd recommend Cooper AT3 or Goodyear Duratrac in a medium width tire. Narrow is best for Winter roads, but wide is best for sand. I personally have found medium width tires best for mud.

You need a medium width tire (relative to your vehicle weight) to deal with the variety of terrains. For an F150, I think you need a tire 11 to 11.5" wide.

Please tell us about your Jeep. Please fill out your profile. If your profile was filled out, I'd already know about your Jeep.

Also look at Hercules AT2 and Hankook ATM.

Any of the tires I mentioned would be good for you, IMO, but I'm not sure about the Hankook ATM for mud. No idea how it does in/on mud. It is known to be great for Winter roads and sandy/rocky conditions though. I speculate the Hercules AT2 would be great, but I don't know for sure.

I own the Cooper AT3 and I know it's great on everything, except on ice it's rated OK. I've never had it on ice. It's sure good on highway dry or wet, and on rocks, mud, and trails. I haven't tried it on sand, but its AT tread should be fine on sand.

BFG AT would also be good for you, but some of those other tires are (IMO) even better and cost less. I owned BFG ATs before, 2 set of them. They were great at almost everything, but only marginally OK in mud.

General Grabber AT2 would be good for you too, IMO, except that it has a hard/stiff ride (if you care about that). I previously owned this tire for a while, but I hated the stiff ride and traded them in for some Cooper AT3.

For softer, pleasant ride quality on bumps, Cooper AT3, Hercules AT2 (cousin of the Cooper), and BFG AT are the best, IMO. The 3 things I didn't like about the BFG AT was high price, hydroplanes easy on wet Interstate at 65+ mph, and not to good in mud.

So that leaves the Cooper AT3 and Hercules AT2 as the best tires that also ride really nice. While I am speculating on the Herc AT2 since I've never owned it, I do own the Cooper AT3 and they are the same tire, except for a few differences in tread and sipes. The Cooper AT3 is quite good in mud and snow and on highway too, but has only 2 sipes per treadblock which might explain why it's only rated OK on ice. The Herc AT2 is same tire carcass with similar treads, but has 3 sipes per tread block, which is why I think the Herc AT2 would be better on ice. No idea how the Herc AT2 would do on mud, but I'm sure at least as well or better than most of the other ATs mentioned.

The Duratrac is (IMO) more aggressive than an AT. I think it's between AT and MT. It might be just what you need for all the off road terrains you mentioned and for Winter roads too, but might be less pleasant at high speeds on highway than an AT. A Cooper AT3 probably isn't as good for mud, but it's pretty darn good in mud, and excellent on highway, IME.

I think Cooper AT3, Hercules AT2, Hankook ATM, or Duratrac are the best choices for your needs. The Hankook ATM being the least aggressive tread. The Duratrac being the most aggressive tread. For what you describe, I'd choose the Cooper AT3, Hercules AT2, or Hankook ATM.

===

Another consideration is the tire has to be available in a size and load rating you want. I recommend load D because plenty tough enough for 1/2 ton F150, yet still has a comfortable enough ride and decent gas mileage (compared to E). Only get E if you want max toughness (more than you need IMO) and are willing to sacrifice ride quality and gas mileage.

Is the tire of your choice available in load D in a size you want? That's an important consideration. What size tire do you want?

===

P.S. - I would NOT recommend Cooper ST Maxx for Winter conditions. It doesn't have enough sipes and it's rubber is very hard, both of which would make it very slippery on ice and packed snow. i.e. - snow that someone else has already driven on. I owned the Cooper ST (prior version before the ST Maxx) and it had few sipes and hard rubber. It was extremely slick on Winter roads. Then I paid tire store to add more sipes. After that it was OK in Winter, but never good. A tire with hard rubber (most commercial tires have hard rubber) is always slick in Winter, even with lots of sipes, but more sipes does help. The ST Maxx lacks enough sipes, and has hard rubber. It's a no go for Winter roads IMO.
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Unread 09-27-2013, 07:29 AM   #254
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^^^ True Charley, those are all excellent tires. But.. he said he tows a horse trailer. And in the high desert sidewall strength is a major concern. So with that said, this is one time I would NOT recommend the Hankook ATM, Cooper AT3, or Hercules AT2. All of those tires have relatively weak sidewalls.

If he gets the Goodyear Duratrac, he needs to make sure it's a LT "E" version with the 3-ply sidewall. Otherwise, those also are well documented here to have lots of blowouts and sidewall cuts.

I still think the Cooper Discoverer STMaxx would be the perfect tire for his uses.
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Unread 09-27-2013, 08:29 AM   #255
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Update on the Kumho Road Venture SAT KL61: I just noticed recently that the groove that cuts into each of the second/fourth row tread blocks is not the same throughout the whole circumference of the tread. That particular groove appears to grow/shrink as you travel around the tire from very open to not much more than a glorified sipe. I'm guessing this is just part of their "this tire's style is inspired by the shape of a flame" crap. I mean, the tire's reviews are what they are, and I can confirm that these are spectacular tires, but I can't help but be a bit turned-off that my contact patch does not remain the same at any given time simply for the sake of some arbitrary cosmetic crap. One of my biggest complaints about these tires are the cheesy sidewall designs, and now noticing that cosmetics are influencing the thread adds to the turn-off despite how awesome they've been performing in everything.

I've got my fingers crossed that Kumho tweaks this tire to be a little more "mature" before I need to buy new tires because they've definitely got a winner here, but if the immature cosmetic shenanigans remain next time I need tires, I'm going to be giving a different tire a try.
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