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Unread 09-05-2013, 01:25 PM   #196
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HCallahan View Post
Lighten Up Francis
OK Nancy.

No problem.

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Unread 09-05-2013, 01:37 PM   #197
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvanus View Post
Herc 31x10.5x15 AT2 is 30.2, wicked small for a 31", it should be their 30" tire!

I'm leaning towards an BFG AT KO ( 30.7 ), Goodyear Adventurer ( 30.8 ), or an Cepek Fun Country ( 30.8 ), all have stout sidewalls. I'd like the taller side of 30"!

I'm not into treading on peoples preferences on brand, type, or size.

I like this thread for it's real time info, and fellow Jeepers help!

Just that I'd like Tire companies to make a TRUE tire size and remove the to the nearest tenth math philosophy!!

Because their math philosophy just doesn't add up in my wallet!
You aren't stepping on anyone's preferences. No worries. I appreciate your participation.

Ya, the Hercules and Cooper both run slightly smaller than average in 30x9.5R15 and in 31x10.5R15.

Most brands run 29.5 and 30.5 in those sizes. Cooper and Hercules run 29.2 and 30.2 in those sizes. So 0.3 shorter than most brands in those sizes. That only lowers the diff about 1/8". Not a big deal to me.

General Grabber AT2 runs tall in those sizes. 29.8 and 30.8 in those sizes. It also runs about 0.5" wider too (wider than Cooper, Hercules, or BFG).

It's interesting that Goodyear Adventurer runs 30.8 (on the tall side for a 31) because Duratracs run short in that size.

AFAIK, I think the Cepek FC2, Grabber AT2, or BFG AT are your best tallish AT choices. If you want AT. There are many MT that run tallish in that size. I have owned the Grabber AT2 and it is an excellent tire, other than stiff sidewalls giving a harsh ride (I have a bad back), but probably the FC2 sidewalls would seem stiff to me too.

One thing I really like about BFG AT and Cooper AT3 is their soft/plush ride quality. Probably same with Herc AT2 since I think it's same carcass as Cooper AT3. That is important to me becasue I have a bad back. If you're back is healthy, then soft/smooth ride quality isn't as much a concern.

In size 245/75R16C the BFG, Cooper, Hercules, and other brands I looked at all run 30.5 tall.

I don't think any brand runs tall or short for all sizes. It depends on the size and the brand.
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Unread 09-05-2013, 06:27 PM   #198
Jeeper44mag
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
There are a lot of different GY Wranglers. You need to be more specific about which you're referring to. GY Wrangler Duratracs and GY Wrangler Silent Armor have proven themselves but are only two of many different tires in the Wrangler "family." The rest of that "family" are pretty awful.



Tires are the single most important component on a vehicle in my opinion. Power is useless if you don't have proper traction for that power to push with. Braking is useless if you don't have proper traction. Turning is dangerous if traction is weak. A car that can't accelerate, decelerate, or turn safely or at all is no car at all. Ride quality is most affected by tires. MPG is significantly affected by tires. Yeah, I firmly believe that "round and black" is a foolish approach and that good research is priceless.
Agreed. Tires are the MOST important component. I *think* the Goodyear Wranglers I had were "GSA's" (that came stock on my TJ and Liberty), and "ST's" (stock on the Dodge 1500). It's been a few years since I had any on now, but the experience with them was SO bad, I'm gunshy about any GY tires now. There are too many other manufacturers out there who have better tires for less money.

Luis
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Have: Metallic Silver '78 CJ7 Golden Eagle, 304 V8, ps., pb., A/C, ~3" Lift, 12.5"x33"x15 BFG AT's., T150/Dana20, Dana30/AMC20, 4.56 gearing, white hardtop.
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Unread 09-05-2013, 06:45 PM   #199
WXman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
Were the 265/70-17 AT3 and BFG AT both the same load rating?

In a given size, you'd have to compare C to C, D to D, or E to E to accurately compare weight.
The KO is not available in "P" rating in any sizes that I'm aware of. So I picked the lightest one they sell in the same size so that it would be apples to apples comparison.

For the record, just to expand on my last post a little... tire manufacturers measure the diameter of tires from the top to bottom, including the bulge of the sidewalls, while mounted on a specific size wheel (which is also usually listed). This is how they come to the numbers that they do.

So, when people talk about how certain tires run "small" or run "big" it's actually incorrect. You can say that certain tires run big compared to other tires of the same size...and that's a true statement. But for a person to say "I bought X tire and it was listed at 32.1 inches and they only measure 30.6 inches and I'm disappointed that they run small" this is actually incorrect. The tire doesn't run small in that case, it's just that you measured it the wrong way.

Does that make any sense? If you measure your tires from the ground up in a straight line, you're not including the sidewalls, wheel width, etc and so naturally you are going to get different numbers than what the tire manufacturer has listed in their charts.
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Unread 09-06-2013, 12:03 AM   #200
Charley3
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Comparing tire weights in a given size is problematic in some sizes because either that size isn't available in all tire brands being compared, or isn't available in the same load rating.

However, in an effort to determine whether Cooper AT3 or BFG AT is heavier (in same size and same load rating), I looked at a few sizes. Of the sizes I looked at so far, only 30x9.5R15C offers apples to apples comparison of same size and load rating.

Note that the Cooper AT3 is slightly heavier than the BFG AT when comparing same size and load rating. See 30x9.5R15C section below. I don't think Cooper AT3 is less tough than BFG AT. My best guess is their toughness is comparable, and close enough to be a non issue.
Also note: Cooper AT3 30x9.5R15 is 29.3 tall, not 29.2 tall was previously posted.

I did not compare weights of size 31x10.5R15C because the height/size differences are substantial between brands in that size.

In 30x9.5R15 and 265/75R16C the height/size differences are insignificant, IMO.
i.e. - all brands compared are very nearly the same actual size.

Unfortunately in 265/75R16 not all brands are available in load C for comparing weights of C to C.
===

30x9.5R15 load C

Cooper AT3 29.3 tall, 39 lbs

BFG AT 29.5 tall, 37 lbs

Toyo AT2 29.5 tall, 37 lbs

Hankook ATM 29.5 tall, 40 lbs

===

265/75R16 load C

Cooper AT3 31.6 tall, 46 lbs

BFG AT unavailable this size load C

Toyo AT2 31.7 tall, 45 lbs

Hankook ATM unavailable this size load C

===

One issue not discussed is availability of size you want in a load rating you want. Sometimes you take what's available, even if it wasn't your first choice of brand.

Lack of availability can make valid weight comparisons impossible for some tires in some sizes/load ratings.

However, I can say that for 30x9.5R15C the Cooper weighs slightly more than the BFG AT. So the earlier statement that BFG AT is probably tougher because it's heavier seems doubtful to me when comparing tires of same size and load rating.

===

Ultimately though, if you're after a certain actual size in a certain actual load rating, you've limited your brand choices. That's OK though, as long as there's still something available that you want.

===

These issues recently led me to buy 16 x 7 stock Icon wheels in case I ever want to run a 245/75R16C tire.

I like Cooper AT3 and Hercules AT2, but I agree they run significantly small in 31x10.5R15. That is an advantage for anyone with fitment/clearance concerns, but is a disadvantage for everyone else. So I understand why Silvanus doesn't want a Cooper AT3 or Hercules AT2 in 31x10.5R15.

In the 30x9.5R15 I am currently running, the Cooper AT3 and Hercules AT2 run insignificantly smaller than most brands (0.2" shorter means 0.1" lower diff, which is insignificant). So I'm good with those tires in 30x9.5R15C.

In 245/75R16C, the Cooper AT3 and Hercules AT2 run exactly the same size as other brands I've looked at. They are all 30.5 tall in 245. Since I like Cooper AT3 and Hercules AT2, but don't want them signifigantly short in whatever size I run, I'm currently running 30x9.5R15C, and if I have enough lift, I might switch to 245R75R16C in future.

I never considered AT3 31x10.5R15 partly because to short (30.2), and mostly because I prefer narrower tires. I wonder if a Cooper AT3 31x10.5R15 might fit a stock XJ? With fender trimming maybe?
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Unread 09-06-2013, 12:54 AM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WXman View Post
The KO is not available in "P" rating in any sizes that I'm aware of. So I picked the lightest one they sell in the same size so that it would be apples to apples comparison.
With all due respect, I don't think that's an apples to apples comparison.

If the tires aren't available in same size and load rating, then I'd say the weights of those tires cannot be compared in that size and load rating.

No offense intended. Just my opinion.
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Unread 09-06-2013, 06:04 AM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
With all due respect, I don't think that's an apples to apples comparison.

If the tires aren't available in same size and load rating, then I'd say the weights of those tires cannot be compared in that size and load rating.

No offense intended. Just my opinion.
Let's say you KNOW you want a 265/70-17. That's THE size you're going to run.

You're looking at BFG KO and Cooper AT3 as your two choices. Which one will be the lighter tire?

Obvious answer... Cooper.

The fact that the BFG doesn't come in a P rated size is a moot point. You need a specific size, you're looking at tires in that size, what's available will all be different weights. In this case, the Cooper is lighter.

That's why it actually is an apples to apples comparison.

But, just for kicks and giggles.. the AT3 is availabe in LT C also, and if you compare LT C for both tires, the Cooper is still 4 lbs. lighter per tire.
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Unread 09-06-2013, 12:17 PM   #203
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WXman View Post
Let's say you KNOW you want a 265/70-17. That's THE size you're going to run.

You're looking at BFG KO and Cooper AT3 as your two choices. Which one will be the lighter tire?

Obvious answer... Cooper.

The fact that the BFG doesn't come in a P rated size is a moot point. You need a specific size, you're looking at tires in that size, what's available will all be different weights. In this case, the Cooper is lighter.

That's why it actually is an apples to apples comparison.

But, just for kicks and giggles.. the AT3 is availabe in LT C also, and if you compare LT C for both tires, the Cooper is still 4 lbs. lighter per tire.
Earlier I said which tire is taller depends on the size being looked at. For example comparing Cooper AT3 to BFG AT, the AT3 runs short in 31x10.5R15, but about same in 30x9.5R15, and exactly same in 245/75R15.

Any height comparisons depend on size being looked at.

Any weight comparisons depend on size being looked at.

In some sizes the AT3 is lighter. In some sizes BFG AT is lighter. In most sizes they are close to same weight. In some sizes comparison is impossible due to one of the brands might not be made in that size.

BFG has more availability in some sizes. Cooper has more in others. Both brands offer more size choices than most brands do.

You are correct about the size you care most about. I am correct about the 2 or 3 sizes I care most about. Other sizes we have no interest in haven't been compared.

===

WXman, I really appreciate your participation in this thread. You have made valuable information contributions and stimulated healthy discussion. You are appreciated. Same for you Sylvanus. Same for everyone in this thead. You guys are awesome!
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Unread 09-06-2013, 05:23 PM   #204
JeepNowski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
Yeah, people never bother to research, and they ask the same questions over and over and over....and that's why this was a colossal waste of your time, Charley3. Because no one searches, they'll never see this thread either, and the repeat threads will continue to come. That's why I just copy and paste a standard response, and if the OP is genuinely interested in learning more, I THEN respond to specific questions.

I research.....And I've narrowed my search for a good set of A/Ts for my WJ due to this thread so good on you OP.

Yes, I realize that this might not be the norm but for me when I'm about to spend in the general neighborhood of $1000 on a set of tires I'm damned sure going to do my research.
As of this moment, I'm still leaning towards the BFG ATKO tires, but I've got a Cooper tire dealer I've been dealing with since I was a kid so I might end up getting some AT3s from them.
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Unread 09-06-2013, 10:47 PM   #205
Charley3
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Originally Posted by JeepNowski View Post
I research.....And I've narrowed my search for a good set of A/Ts for my WJ due to this thread so good on you OP.
That makes me feel good. Thanks! Your participation is appreciated.

BTW - Mschi posted what you quoted a long time ago. I think he's changed his mind since then. He has been very supportive of this thread and helpful in providing information and his participation has been appreciated, and is appreciated.

So thanks JeepNowski and Mschi for your participation. You guys are awesome!
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Unread 09-09-2013, 05:58 AM   #206
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Apparently, discount tire direct.com sold so many Cooper AT3s during the Labor Day sale that they are now on backorder. The factory is trying to crank them out as fast as they can and with any luck they should start filling racks again later this week.
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Unread 09-09-2013, 11:43 AM   #207
Charley3
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Originally Posted by WXman View Post
Apparently, discount tire direct.com sold so many Cooper AT3s during the Labor Day sale that they are now on backorder. The factory is trying to crank them out as fast as they can and with any luck they should start filling racks again later this week.
Luckily I bought mine before they were as well known and popular. I bought mine just as they were starting to become popular.

As their popularity rises I expect availability to suffer until they raise the price. That always happens when anything becomes popular.

I realize it was the sale too, but if it becomes as popular as I think it will, I predict scarcity followed by price increases.

I remember when this happened with BFG AT in the past. I remember this happening with anything good.
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Unread 09-09-2013, 07:31 PM   #208
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Yeah the Firestone Destination A/T did the same thing. Was dirt cheap when it came out.. then after everybody and their brother started buying them the price went through the roof.

But with the Cooper Discoverer AT3 I'm not sure that'll happen. In my size, they offer P, C, and E rating. The C and E are already extremely expensive at more than $200 bucks each. So they can't really raise the price on the common P rating much. They still have to compete with the other stuff in the category. You've got the Hankook and Toyo and a couple of Good-for-a-year tires all competing head on in that P rated 30-32" market so if you jack the prices up you start alienating customers. I think the market overall has changed in the past few years.
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Unread 09-11-2013, 05:50 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvanus View Post
How's the sidewalls on the A/T3's, are they like an BFG??
I was able to get my hands on a P265/70-17 Cooper AT3 today. I'm a little disappointed.

The tread width is 8.25" as listed. They do weigh 40.5 lbs. as listed. And the tread is a full 13/32 deep as listed. The problem is with the diameter. These are only measuring about 30.5" tall when mounted. That is VERY short for the size. It's actually equivalent to the P265/65-17 tires that came on my 4Runner. I'm pretty disappointed in this, especially when the other stuff Cooper is making these days is running big. Also, they were not easy to balance and some took quite a bit of weight.

I'm going to get to do some road testing tomorrow on this size and I'll report back later.
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'96 ZJ - heavily modded
'05 KJ CRD Limited - 370 lb./ft. from a 4-cylinder and trail ready. Pure awesomeness.
'11 Mango Tango JKU Sport - Mods
'12 Dozer JKU Sport S - 6-speed - ACE rock rails - Max Tow package - Daystar spacers - 33x12.50 Duratracs
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Unread 09-11-2013, 07:23 PM   #210
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WXman View Post
I was able to get my hands on a P265/70-17 Cooper AT3 today. I'm a little disappointed.

The tread width is 8.25" as listed. They do weigh 40.5 lbs. as listed. And the tread is a full 13/32 deep as listed. The problem is with the diameter. These are only measuring about 30.5" tall when mounted. That is VERY short for the size. It's actually equivalent to the P265/65-17 tires that came on my 4Runner. I'm pretty disappointed in this, especially when the other stuff Cooper is making these days is running big. Also, they were not easy to balance and some took quite a bit of weight.

I'm going to get to do some road testing tomorrow on this size and I'll report back later.
My Cooper AT3 30x9.5R15 have been great for me, but one of them did take a lot of weight to balance. Two others took a moderate amount of weight to balance. One took almost no weight.

If they run short in your preferred size, buy the next taller size, if that's an option.
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