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Unread 07-04-2013, 12:55 AM   #16
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biffgnar View Post
...as to bigger tires creating more potential for DW . . . . . duh!! Bigger tires put more strain on parts and wear them out faster which then allows DW to happen.
Thank you! It is obvious isn't it?

Yet many dufuses (or dufi) have told me I'm full of poo when I said exactly what you said in quote above. I'll be quoting you often. I might put what you said in my signature as a quoting Biffgnar.

I'll start referring dufi to you so you can give them a reality check.

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Unread 07-04-2013, 01:08 AM   #17
Charley3
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Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
Pretty much any track bar located solid front axle (usually coil sprung) will be vulnerable to DW.
Agreed. Now doesn't that make you wonder if solid front axle with coil springs is a poor design? Makes me wonder.

Jeeps are the only vehicles I've owned that had solid front axle with coil springs. That explains why DW has only happened to me with Jeeps.

However, I'm confident that I'll never again have DW with Jeeps because I'll keep my tire size to 31 or less on stock wheels (stock BS) on my XJ, and keep it in good repair. If I ever own another LJ, I'll keep tire size to 32 x 10.5 (265) or less on stock Moab wheels (5" BS) and keep it in good repair.

Done that way, I think DW will never be a problem for me again.

Even so, my opinion of independent front suspension, and solid axle leaf spring front suspension, just went way up.
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Unread 07-04-2013, 06:40 AM   #18
biffgnar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
However, I'm confident that I'll never again have DW with Jeeps because I'll keep my tire size to 31 or less on stock wheels (stock BS) on my XJ, and keep it in good repair. If I ever own another LJ, I'll keep tire size to 32 x 10.5 (265) or less on stock Moab wheels (5" BS) and keep it in good repair.

Done that way, I think DW will never be a problem for me again.
While that will work, its being a little extreme. Plenty of us run 35s (or higher) on ~3.75" BS wheels, put thousands of miles on them and don't experience DW. Yes, bigger tires put more strain on things and if things wear out DW is a possibility, but bigger tires doesn't automatically equal DW happening.
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Unread 07-04-2013, 08:04 AM   #19
mschi772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
Agreed. Now doesn't that make you wonder if solid front axle with coil springs is a poor design? Makes me wonder.

Jeeps are the only vehicles I've owned that had solid front axle with coil springs. That explains why DW has only happened to me with Jeeps.

However, I'm confident that I'll never again have DW with Jeeps because I'll keep my tire size to 31 or less on stock wheels (stock BS) on my XJ, and keep it in good repair. If I ever own another LJ, I'll keep tire size to 32 x 10.5 (265) or less on stock Moab wheels (5" BS) and keep it in good repair.

Done that way, I think DW will never be a problem for me again.

Even so, my opinion of independent front suspension, and solid axle leaf spring front suspension, just went way up.
The design has some inherent weaknesses, but the real flaw is that the manufacturers pinch pennies and cut corners. We [SUV and truck enthusiasts] have proven over and over that this suspension/steering design is just fine as long as it's built to a proper standard with strong parts. Manufacturers don't "overengineer" like we do, though, and they build it just enough to be good enough to hit the streets in stock form. Once they hit the streets and people start neglecting maintenance on ball joints, bushings, alignments, etc and modding beyond stock specs........death wobble.
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Unread 07-04-2013, 11:26 AM   #20
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wow so much bad info.....here

DW first off name one person that died.

I have had a 47 and 66 they can DW stock too. as can ANY solid front axle be it 4x4 or 2x4

16 rims fit Jk's NO troubles. Though why would you go to a 16"? They cost more and you have LESS choice in tires. If you are going to go down in rim size might as well go 15" then and 35"s cheapest 35"s set up by FAR. But not without issues. But far less money and its a bottle neck as there are no larger tires than 35 in 15" excepting Interco tires.

stay with 17" they balance easier. Better go over that front end with a fine tooth comb. No use putting new shoes on to have them wear horribly.

35"s will wear out the tie rods, ball joints, drag link, unit bearings much faster than the stock 32 at there back space.

Our 012Jkr. I just tosses the tie rod and drag link with only 18K in the trash. I wheel a lot and drive it there and back. The stock tie rods are so loose new you can rotate them with arthritic hands. Large tires Kill the drag links and they bend and flex like a wet noodle with 35 and up.
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Unread 07-07-2013, 11:28 AM   #21
Take_My_Top_Off
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ok i'm gonna stick with the same rims. I was only thinking about switching bc i hate chrome, but I've been reading up on having them powder coated which shouldn't be too expensive.

so would dropping to 34"s be the better thing to do here? I know they won't look as good but if it will make it last longer I think thats what I'll do.

I'm having a mechanic friend check out the dw tomorrow. he says he knows all about it.

btw, thanks to everyone for all of your input!
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Unread 07-07-2013, 11:52 AM   #22
mschi772
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How wide are your wheels? What I'm getting at is: can you go to a narrower tire like 10" instead of 12"? That would trim some mass. Downsizing to 34" or 33" tires would definitely trim some mass away as well (make sure you keep your odometer/speedometer accurate). It might look a little goofy, but look-up some picks of JKs with 4.5" lift and 33/34's to see; there are picks of all kinds of lift-tire combos out there. I'd stick to the 17" wheels (alloy I assume?). Tires for 16" wheels aren't as easy or cheap to come by, and you won't save any significant amount of mass by trading wheel metal for tire rubber.

Plenty of guys use 35" tires without a problem, though. I'm not sure if the JK needs some beefing-up to make them work well or not (I'd guess the JK should be fine as-is, but I'm an XJ guy). If you have DW it's not simply tire SIZE causing it--there is literally something wrong somewhere that you have to fix. If you just have a little tire wobble/shimmy/shudder, then new, well-balanced tires of any size will fix that. If you didn't poop yourself and fear for your life, I'm skeptical if your wobble is THE death wobble. DW really is something that you KNOW when it happens.

P.S. I really want to crush the myths associated with rotational mass that people love to spread during topics like this, so before anyone starts blabbing about how much any given lb of rotating weight is worth compared to static weight, read this--http://hpwizard.com/rotational-inertia.html Yes, rotational mass is "worth" more than static mass, but not nearly as much as the misconceptions floating around would have you believe.
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Unread 07-10-2013, 09:43 PM   #23
Take_My_Top_Off
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UPDATE: DW is GONE! I had the steering stabilizer replaced and now i can't make it wobble if i try!
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Unread 07-11-2013, 05:19 AM   #24
mschi772
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Unfortunately...This is my skeptical face. I've never heard of a steering stabilizer being the cause of DW. Often replacing one will seem to be a solution as a new one will mask the symptoms of DW, but because the flaw/wobble is still there, it will wear the stabilizer out faster than usual. I've even met mechanics that think there is no other cause/solution for DW other than the steering stabilizer. Lots of guys drive completely without a steering stabilizer on purpose and without issue. Admittedly, I've never heard of someone with a JK running without a stabilizer, and I'm not much of a JK guy, so maybe there's something different about JKs that I'm not aware of.
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Unread 07-11-2013, 08:00 PM   #25
Take_My_Top_Off
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He seems to know alot about dw and what to look for. The steering stabilizer seemed to be the only thing it could be. and as I said earlier, I'm not even sure it was actual dw. it wasn't quite as violent as most ppl describe, but still scary. There is this one spot going over a bridge where it would always happen on my way home. It hasn't done it since i got that fixed. Yes, it may be temporary, but that's all I've got right now. I'll keep this updated.

BTW I'm still on the hunt for some good tires similar to the maxxis bighorn. I really love the looks of those, but I'll be on the road for the most part so I need them to be street friendly also. Open to suggestions!

Thanks again!
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Unread 07-11-2013, 10:26 PM   #26
rchase559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3
Even so, my opinion of independent front suspension, and solid axle leaf spring front suspension, just went way up.
This is a little off topic but I wouldn't put too much faith into a leaf sprung front axle not being susceptible to DW. It can and will happen to those as well.

IMO DW is far more complex than most give it credit for (myself included in the past). If you care to learn more, there was a thread somewhat recently that talked about vibes, frequency, and isolation that was quite informative and a bit of an eye opener. It may be of interest to you.
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Unread 07-12-2013, 05:28 AM   #27
mschi772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rchase559 View Post
This is a little off topic but I wouldn't put too much faith into a leaf sprung front axle not being susceptible to DW. It can and will happen to those as well.

IMO DW is far more complex than most give it credit for (myself included in the past). If you care to learn more, there was a thread somewhat recently that talked about vibes, frequency, and isolation that was quite informative and a bit of an eye opener. It may be of interest to you.
Indeed, I believe the Youtube-documented case of DW in an F250 may have been a leaf-sprung front axle. Maybe not, but regardless, DW can happen to leaf-sprung vehicles as well--less likely but very possible.
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Unread 07-12-2013, 04:50 PM   #28
TimV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post

Indeed, I believe the Youtube-documented case of DW in an F250 may have been a leaf-sprung front axle. Maybe not, but regardless, DW can happen to leaf-sprung vehicles as well--less likely but very possible.
I personally saw a large F450 stake body truck with the most severe DW you have ever seen. The wheels were oscillating back and forth probably 6 inches either direction. They looked like they were coming off the ground as well. It was insane.
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Unread 07-14-2013, 01:52 AM   #29
squarelite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 222Doc
wow so much bad info.....here

DW first off name one person that died.

I have had a 47 and 66 they can DW stock too. as can ANY solid front axle be it 4x4 or 2x4

16 rims fit Jk's NO troubles. Though why would you go to a 16"? They cost more and you have LESS choice in tires. If you are going to go down in rim size might as well go 15" then and 35"s cheapest 35"s set up by FAR. But not without issues. But far less money and its a bottle neck as there are no larger tires than 35 in 15" excepting Interco tires.

stay with 17" they balance easier. Better go over that front end with a fine tooth comb. No use putting new shoes on to have them wear horribly.

35"s will wear out the tie rods, ball joints, drag link, unit bearings much faster than the stock 32 at there back space.

Our 012Jkr. I just tosses the tie rod and drag link with only 18K in the trash. I wheel a lot and drive it there and back. The stock tie rods are so loose new you can rotate them with arthritic hands. Large tires Kill the drag links and they bend and flex like a wet noodle with 35 and up.
So very wrong
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