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Unread 12-12-2013, 05:04 PM   #31
mschi772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
Here is an interesting factoid. I got this from an Internet source discussing studs vs studless in Oregon. I didn't save the link.

The annual road damage from studded tires in Oregon is 4 times the annual road repair budget.

So can we afford to have people driving on studs in States where snow and ice happen for a day to a week at a time followed by weeks with no snow or ice?

Studded tires are increasing road repairs a huge amount, which will have to be paid by tax payers.

It's different in regions where snow and ice are constant during Winter. In those states I have no objection to studs if people want them.

But in regions where snow or ice are occasional, why tear up the roads with studs? Also, studded Winter tires have less traction on wet and dry pavement. In Western WA and OR we have snow or ice less than half the time in Winter. So studs don't make sense there, IMO.
This is why studs are illegal in many states including my home state of Wisconsin. Studs are extremely destructive to roads.

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Unread 12-12-2013, 08:34 PM   #32
wilson1010
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The Oregon study (http://media.oregonlive.com/opinion_...DDED_TIRES.pdf) is a delightful exercise in political silliness. It makes great reading. But, in the end, studded tires work better than un-studded, save lives and property damage, and the road damage they do does not matter because other factors cause the roads to disintegrate and require repair long before ruts from studs are the predicate for repaving.
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Unread 12-14-2013, 04:56 PM   #33
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Unread 12-15-2013, 09:36 PM   #34
L_Kilkenny
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Go with good snow tires. Second choice snowflake rated AT's, definitely not MT's. I ran BFG AT's for years and found them the best of the AT's I tried but since switching to an actual snow tire the difference has been noticeable to say the least. Good lugs, lots of sipeing, plyable in cold weather are the keys. No AT can compare to a design built tire.

I'm running a set of off-branded Kelly snows on my 2WD Mountaineer and it goes/stops/turns better than my XJ in 4WD running Hankook AT's. Not even close realy. BTW, those Hankooks have to be the worst winter tire I've ever run.
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Unread 12-16-2013, 12:18 AM   #35
Spiderxx
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Goodyear wrangler Duratrac's. So far the best tire I have ever owned. Not that great for mud but dry, rain, snow. Outstanding!!!!
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Unread 12-16-2013, 10:22 AM   #36
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Blizzaks on the wifes FWD Saturn; work well up to 4-5 inches of snow then they struggle
Duratracs on the Jeep.. "what snow"? If it gets too deep then the chains go on.

Had BFG AT on my Z71, and they suck in the snow. Packed snow is ok, but ice or any kind of buildup it just slips and slides.
Changed to Fierce Attitudes which resemble the Duratrac tread but more open; haven't had a chance to play in snow yet but I think they will out do the BFG easily.
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Unread 12-16-2013, 04:07 PM   #37
Charley3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
The Oregon study (http://media.oregonlive.com/opinion_...DDED_TIRES.pdf) is a delightful exercise in political silliness. It makes great reading. But, in the end, studded tires work better than un-studded, save lives and property damage, and the road damage they do does not matter because other factors cause the roads to disintegrate and require repair long before ruts from studs are the predicate for repaving.
OK Wilson. You stepped in it now. You're often telling me my advice and opinion about Winter tires is wrong because I'm not from the region of the person asking for advice. Though usually neither are you. So that seems a bit hyocritical of you.

Now you're talking about my geographical area (Western OR and WA) and you still think you know best even though you aren't from here and I am.

I guess you just know best about Winter tires in every region and locals know nothing eh? I'm close enough to Canookida that I say "eh" a lot. I think I know my local conditions better than you, eh?

We did just all agree that Winter methods and knowledge are regional, didn't we? I guess that only applies to the rest of us, but not you.

P.S. - I love (sarcassm) your post where you think you know more about Winter tires and driving than Canadians.
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Unread 12-16-2013, 04:24 PM   #38
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P.S. - I realize that others from Western OR or Western WA may have different opinions about Winter tires in our region, but they're entitled to their opinions about the region they live in.
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Unread 12-16-2013, 04:29 PM   #39
Charley3
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Re Buffalo NY. Wilson's argument for studs in Buffalo sounds like the heavy snow fall and deep snow since he keeps talking about Buffalo having heavy snow fall.

It already been well established that studs have the advantage on ice, but not deep snow. So WTF Wilson? What does deep snow have to do with studs? Nothing. It's ice where studs work better. For deep snow any Winter tire with or without studs would work well, and probably any Winter rated AT too.

If your argument for studs is for ice, then why do you keep going on about deep snow?
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Unread 12-16-2013, 05:18 PM   #40
mschi772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
Re Buffalo NY. Wilson's argument for studs in Buffalo sounds like the heavy snow fall and deep snow since he keeps talking about Buffalo having heavy snow fall.

It already been well established that studs have the advantage on ice, but not deep snow. So WTF Wilson? What does deep snow have to do with studs? Nothing. It's ice where studs work better. For deep snow any Winter tire with or without studs would work well, and probably any Winter rated AT too.

If your argument for studs is for ice, then why do you keep going on about deep snow?
Like Charley, I also fail to see what advantage studs provide in deep snow. Hell, in SUPER deep snow, some people will actually switch to big, wide tires to try to stay on TOP of the snow. In extreme cases, they use tracks to really increase their contact area and to "float" on the snow, but I digress as these are strategies employed in northern Canada and Alaska, rarely anywhere else. Studs are for digging into ice, so how do the help you paddle through deep snow? Yes, if there is deep snow, there's likely to be ice here and there; where one goes, the other follows, but I fail to see how studs are as amazing as you (wilson) are conveying especially for an area with a very well-developed snow-removal infrastructure that also employs liberal use of road salt.

While I'm not from Buffalo, NY, I DO know what lake-effect snow is; I'm intimately familiar with it having grown-up walking distance from the Lake Michigan coast. Heck, I still live near the lake now. While I'm sure it's much more common downwind of the lakes in a place like Buffalo, I'm very experienced with what the lakes can do to the weather year-round and especially in winter. I just don't see the advantage of studs anywhere but places that are consistently icy, and I have seen real damage done by them other areas and here in WI in spite of our law prohibiting their use.

Studs have their place, and regardless of that, this thread really isn't about studs anyway. Many winter tires are studdable if the OP is allowed and wants to use them. Winter tires would still be wise with or without studs. If the OP can always manage to wait until the streets are plowed, then discussion of 96+ inches of annual snowfall is also moot because, once plowed, there's roughly the same amount of snow left on them in NY as there is in OH as there is in WI as there is in WA. I don't know for sure, but speaking from my experience, there are probably plenty of times that you can't wait for the plow, so Buffalo's snowfall is probably semi-relevant.
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Unread 12-16-2013, 07:00 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
Studs have their place, and regardless of that, this thread really isn't about studs anyway.
Right on. The OP said "best (on) road snow tire". I interpret that as asking what is best on road in all conditions, including clear/dry and clear/wet when in between storms. I don't know if that's what the OP meant, but that's how I interpreted it. Also, he said snow. He didn't mention ice.

So for that, I'd want a Winter tire without studs, though all my favorite examples are studdable if he prefers studs. I like Winter tires that can be used year round (I choose not to stud them), but dedicated "Winter only" tires (with or without studs) are OK too.

If ice isn't a concern, the studless perform BETTER on wet and dry pavement than studs, and equal on snow as studs.

If ice is a concern, studs are best, but studless Winter tires work well enough for me on ice, IME.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
Many winter tires are studdable if the OP is allowed and wants to use them. Winter tires would still be wise with or without studs.

If the OP can always manage to wait until the streets are plowed, then discussion of 96+ inches of annual snowfall is also moot because, once plowed, there's roughly the same amount of snow left on them in NY as there is in OH as there is in WI as there is in WA.
Yes. Right on. If road plowed, any Winter tire will get er done (with or without studs).

If it isn't plowed no Winter tire (with or without studs) will help in 96" snow. You need Mattracks (spelling?) for snow that deep.

Obviously the OP meant plowed roads because that's part of the definition of "Winter road" in a place like Buffalo. At least plowed part of the time. If it's totally not plowed and has 96" snow (or even 30") it's not a road, IMO.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 02:52 AM   #42
Charley3
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Hey Wilson. Nothing personal. We just don't agree with you, but it's not personal.

Sorry I got a little amped up earlier.

I wish you happiness and good holidays!
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Unread 12-17-2013, 06:40 AM   #43
wilson1010
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Despite your antics, you still know nothing about Buffalo weather.

Starting in December, Buffalo has snow on the ground almost continuously for two months. Rarely is a snowfall more than a foot or so, it does get moved around, pounded down by cars, sublimated into ice by the sun and then snowed on again.

All of your hypothecation about whether studs help in a massive snowfall is pointless drivel.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 07:07 AM   #44
mschi772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
Despite your antics, you still know nothing about Buffalo weather.

Starting in December, Buffalo has snow on the ground almost continuously for two months. Rarely is a snowfall more than a foot or so, it does get moved around, pounded down by cars, sublimated into ice by the sun and then snowed on again.

All of your hypothecation about whether studs help in a massive snowfall is pointless drivel.
Or, you know, you could have explained your claims in a polite way instead of being insulting. While you may have lived in that area once upon a time, what I know to be true at this time is that someone from Cincinnati, OH is talking like he knows all things snow and arguing with, among others, a guy who's resided in various areas of Wisconsin for almost all of his life. I know that you get snow in southern OH. I also know that doesn't mean that you necessarily know what true Great Lakes snow is like similarly to how I'm a stranger to what high mountains or northern Canada and Alaska might be like...and how I'm a stranger to what it's like to experience snowfall in a more southern state with lesser infrastructure and more inexperienced drivers.

I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that Buffalo is no exception to the fact that NY is a liberal user of road salt. I highly doubt that there are many roads other than some country roads and small side streets that are covered in snow/compressed snow/ice for too long.

Until the OP or someone else from Buffalo actually steps in and lectures us on the nuances of their winters, I'm going to assume that my experiences living near a great lake are quite similar.

Charley said it's nothing personal, but this is neither the first nor the second time you've copped a major attitude in a thread to the point of being excessively argumentative and, much more importantly, deliberately insulting to other posters. Posters such as we may simply be trying to perpetuate a potentially enlightening discussion, but your conduct does seem to get slightly personal on a somewhat frequent basis. Part of discussions like these means there will be disagreements and incorrect assumptions--chill out and learn how to handle those situations better.
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Unread 12-17-2013, 07:26 AM   #45
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Let me throw one more thing in. If I were to be purchasing a snow tire that I wasn't going to stud, I wouldn't buy one that's studdable. From what I've been told by my tire supplier (I deal with lots of tires at work...in particular lots of snow tires), the studdable snow tires have a harder rubber consistency to help hold the stud into place once it's inserted. A harder rubber consistency isn't quite as good on snow and ice...doesn't flex as well. So if you're not planning on studding your snows, then it maybe in your favor to not purchase a studdable snow tire.
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