Air down tires for snow and ice - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > General Technical Discussions > Tires & Wheels > Air down tires for snow and ice

Savvy Billet LED Tail LightsLight up the holidays with LED lights from JeepHutIntroducing MONSTALINER™ UV Permanent DIY Roll On Bed Line

Reply
Unread 02-17-2014, 04:44 PM   #16
LilyBayXJ
Registered User
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Presque Isle, Maine
Posts: 1,203
I'll be the one to agree with Charley, I've had great luck airing down my tires for winter driving. I find it especially helps when running woods roads that haven't been plowed recently, usually 6-8" of snow. I drive over 150 miles in these conditions each week, and always run my tires softer in the winter.

__________________
2006 LJ - 4.0L, NSG370, 31's
2001 XJ - 4.0L, AW4, 3.5" lift, 31's
1997 TJ - 2.5L, AX5, 2.5" lift, 32's - Sold
1983 CJ-5 - Stock - Sold
[URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/tj-tech-boot-camp-must-read-new-tj-owners-forum-members-722109/"]TJ Boot Camp[/URL]
LilyBayXJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 02-17-2014, 04:49 PM   #17
Charley3
Web Wheeler
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,886
The police here air down slightly their all season tires for snow or ice. So they agree with me. I'm doing it with all terrains, but same concept.
__________________
Warning: Sometimes I edit a post a few times to get it how I want it.
Charley3 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 02-17-2014, 06:03 PM   #18
derekmac
Senior Member
 
derekmac's Avatar
2002 WJ 
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Elmsdale, NS
Posts: 652
I agree with airing down some for winter driving. I find it helps taking about 5 psi out.
__________________
2002 WJ Olympics Commemorative Edition
245/70-17 Duratracs
2" BB
Future: 4" lift and lockers

Build thread.
derekmac is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 02-20-2014, 06:27 PM   #19
Timglide
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Whooville, Michigan
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
Airing down is no help in snow and ice, and 5psi will easily lead to a de-beaded tire since the snow piles up in front of the sidewall when the wheels are turned and the car is moving forward. It only takes about 300 pounds of force on a sidewall at 5psi to de-bead the tire.

I would think that veteran posters here would know that having more rubber on the ground results in less traction on the snow. Hasn't anyone every driven a Corvette in the snow? One lap around the block in a car with super wide tires will teach even the dumbest of you that narrow is better in snow. Airing down mostly widens the contact patch.
What is the extent of your experience wheeling in the snow? I live 9 miles from the nearest trails and keep my pressure at 5 psi all winter. Snow is deep in the woods with drifts around five feet. The difference between 10 psi and 5 psi means everything. At 5 psi I've wheeled a dozen times without loosing a bead (no beadlocks here) just this season. Sand, snow, it's all the same.
Timglide is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 02-20-2014, 07:16 PM   #20
Charley3
Web Wheeler
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timglide View Post
What is the extent of your experience wheeling in the snow? I live 9 miles from the nearest trails and keep my pressure at 5 psi all winter. Snow is deep in the woods with drifts around five feet. The difference between 10 psi and 5 psi means everything. At 5 psi I've wheeled a dozen times without loosing a bead (no beadlocks here) just this season. Sand, snow, it's all the same.
While I agree that airing down a little for on road is good, I never said to air down to 5 psi. Wilson misunderstood me. Apparently I was not initially clear in what I meant.

I meant I reduced my tire pressure 5 psi below normal when it snows or gets icy. My normal is 27 psi. So when it snows or ices I use 22 psi.

I was referring to on road in Winter conditions.

For very deep snow (typically off road, or off traveled roads) in Winter, I do think reducing about 10 psi is helpful (for my 30" tires). So then I'd be running 17 psi. (27 - 10 = 17)

You're talking about something a bit different. You're talking about airing down to literally run 5 psi. That might be good in deep snow off traveled roads if you have some really big tires. I don't know. Most of my experience is with 235, 30, 31, and 33; and I prefer 30s.

I think you're talking about much larger tires in much deeper snow than what I was. I'm not disagreeing with you. Just saying apples and oranges.

I think we agree that (some amount) of airing down is helpful for Winter conditions on or off road. The amount of airing down depends on conditions and tire size, IMO.

For 235, 30, 31, and perhaps 33s, I think a 5 psi reduction (normal street pressure - 5 psi) is good on road in typical Winter road conditons.

===

P.S. - I have no idea if a tire will debead at 5 psi. I've never run any psi that low. I assume it'd depend on the tire size and rim size. But for my 30" tire size and Winter conditions, 17 psi is the lowest I'd run for deep snow, and 22 psi for traveled Winter roads.
__________________
Warning: Sometimes I edit a post a few times to get it how I want it.
Charley3 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 02-20-2014, 07:29 PM   #21
mschi772
Registered User
1997 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Racine, WI
Posts: 2,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
P.S. - I have no idea if a tire will debead at 5 psi. I've never run any psi that low. I assume it'd depend on the tire size and rim size. But for my 30" tire size and Winter conditions, 17 psi is the lowest I'd run for deep snow, and 22 psi for traveled Winter roads.
I can guarantee that if driving at any significant speed on the road for any decent length of time, if it doesn't debead, tread wear will be horrendous at the least, and blowout could happen at any second. Underinflation is the number one cause of highway tread throws and blowouts.

On the trails, whether a tire will debead or not depends on wheel-tire width difference, bead-locks or not, wheel model, tire model......lots of variables and a discussion probably best-suited for its own thread. I gotta say, though: even wheeling slowly at 5 psi, though? Yeesh, I'd have to be using some humongous tires with beadlock wheels to even consider ever doing that.
__________________
Might trade rebuilt 231 for new/rebuilt 242. Contact me.

New sig rules suck.
mschi772 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 02-20-2014, 08:33 PM   #22
-OIIIIIIIO-01
Registered User
2001 WJ 
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010
Airing down is no help in snow and ice, and 5psi will easily lead to a de-beaded tire since the snow piles up in front of the sidewall when the wheels are turned and the car is moving forward. It only takes about 300 pounds of force on a sidewall at 5psi to de-bead the tire. I would think that veteran posters here would know that having more rubber on the ground results in less traction on the snow. Hasn't anyone every driven a Corvette in the snow? One lap around the block in a car with super wide tires will teach even the dumbest of you that narrow is better in snow. Airing down mostly widens the contact patch.

Reading this thread and seen your sig, unimogs are bad F'N A$$! Do you have a pic?

Don't mean to high jack the thread, but at this point it just seems like a back and fourth, "IMO" thread! Lol
-OIIIIIIIO-01 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 02-20-2014, 08:57 PM   #23
wilson1010
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 1,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by -OIIIIIIIO-01 View Post
Reading this thread and seen your sig, unimogs are bad F'N A$$! Do you have a pic?

Don't mean to high jack the thread, but at this point it just seems like a back and fourth, "IMO" thread! Lol
Thanks, PM sent.
__________________
03 Rubicon; 99 xj with too much stuff to list; Unimog 406
wilson1010 is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 02-20-2014, 09:29 PM   #24
Charley3
Web Wheeler
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschi772 View Post
I can guarantee that if driving at any significant speed on the road for any decent length of time, if it doesn't debead, tread wear will be horrendous at the least, and blowout could happen at any second. Underinflation is the number one cause of highway tread throws and blowouts.

On the trails, whether a tire will debead or not depends on wheel-tire width difference, bead-locks or not, wheel model, tire model......lots of variables and a discussion probably best-suited for its own thread. I gotta say, though: even wheeling slowly at 5 psi, though? Yeesh, I'd have to be using some humongous tires with beadlock wheels to even consider ever doing that.
The guy who posted he likes to use 5 psi said in deep snow off road, or off traveled roads. So I assume he meant for low speed use.

However, I never advocated running 5 psi. There was a misunderstanding at the beginning of this thread where I said (or meant) that I like to reduce psi by 5. So then I'm actually running 22 psi on slick Winter roads instead of my normal 27 psi.

So regardless of what running 5 psi will or won't do, I never suggested running 5 psi. The other fellow did, but he meant in deep snow off road (and I assume he meant with whatever big tires wheels he has).

I can't really comment one way or other about running 5 psi, except to emphasize that I never advocated doing that.
__________________
Warning: Sometimes I edit a post a few times to get it how I want it.
Charley3 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 02-21-2014, 07:00 AM   #25
wilson1010
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
Posts: 1,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley3 View Post
The guy who posted he likes to use 5 psi said in deep snow off road, or off traveled roads. So I assume he meant for low speed use.

However, I never advocated running 5 psi. There was a misunderstanding at the beginning of this thread where I said (or meant) that I like to reduce psi by 5. So then I'm actually running 22 psi on slick Winter roads instead of my normal 27 psi.

So regardless of what running 5 psi will or won't do, I never suggested running 5 psi. The other fellow did, but he meant in deep snow off road (and I assume he meant with whatever big tires wheels he has).

I can't really comment one way or other about running 5 psi, except to emphasize that I never advocated doing that.
The physics on this is quite simple. A tire with 5psi inside will require just a hair more than 5psi on the outside to de-bead it. When a tire turned at an angle presents its sidewall to mud, sand, or snow and ice, there is pressure applied to the sidewall from the outside. when the force reaches 5psi or so the tire is compressed off the bead.

But, since a larger tire contact area on snow is counterproductive, as evidenced by the dismal performance of wide tire sports cars one should not be doing this in the first place.
__________________
03 Rubicon; 99 xj with too much stuff to list; Unimog 406
wilson1010 is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 02-21-2014, 01:49 PM   #26
Wheelin98TJ
JEEP FREAK
 
Wheelin98TJ's Avatar
1998 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: , Southeast MI
Posts: 24,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
...But, since a larger tire contact area on snow is counterproductive, as evidenced by the dismal performance of wide tire sports cars one should not be doing this in the first place.


An incorrect correlation is not evidence.
Wheelin98TJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 02-21-2014, 02:22 PM   #27
Charley3
Web Wheeler
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,886
I agree that narrower tires are much better on snowy or icy roads. I've owned narrow and wide tires and the narrow are much better on Winter roads.

However, letting a little bit of air out (say around 5 psi) of the tire has helped my Winter traction a lot with any width tire.

Here's why IMO. With a little less air the contact patch is longer and slightly wider, and a lot more flexible.

That allows the outer lugs to dig in more and puts more lugs and sipes on the ground. i.e. - puts more edges on the ground. More edges means more grip.

The slight increase in flotation is probably insignifigant from a 5 psi reduction, but the change in shape of contact patch and increase in tread flex is signifigant as shown by contact patch tests I did a couple years ago.

I think the above explains why letting some air out has helped me in the past. This Winter I did not airdown at all, and I noticed signifigantly less traction.
__________________
Warning: Sometimes I edit a post a few times to get it how I want it.
Charley3 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 03-05-2014, 09:14 PM   #28
Timglide
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Whooville, Michigan
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010 View Post
The physics on this is quite simple. A tire with 5psi inside will require just a hair more than 5psi on the outside to de-bead it. When a tire turned at an angle presents its sidewall to mud, sand, or snow and ice, there is pressure applied to the sidewall from the outside. when the force reaches 5psi or so the tire is compressed off the bead.

But, since a larger tire contact area on snow is counterproductive, as evidenced by the dismal performance of wide tire sports cars one should not be doing this in the first place.
Wow is all I can say..............Go to any vehicle this very moment and release all air in a tire, now, with your bare hands break the bead. Zero psi inside and zero psi outside.........................According to wilson1010 statement it should just about fall right off. How many times I have wheeled all day at 3 psi without a failure? LMAO at silly statements.
Timglide is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 03-05-2014, 10:15 PM   #29
Charley3
Web Wheeler
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,886
All argumemts about running at 5 psi are off topic. I never said to use 5 psi. Wilson misunderstood me, and then a bunch of other people chased him off the cliff into an off topic debate.

It's probably partly my fault for not having been more clear in the OP. It's probably also partly Wilson. He and I are prone to misunderstandings. What happened in this thread was a miscommunication.

What I was referring to in OP is to use 5 psi less than normal street psi. For example, if you normally use 30 psi, let out 5 psi and then use 25 psi on Winter roads. In my case it's 27 - 5 = 22 psi
__________________
Warning: Sometimes I edit a post a few times to get it how I want it.
Charley3 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 03-07-2014, 12:33 PM   #30
Scrmngchicken
Registered User
2001 WJ 
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Louisburg, North Carolina
Posts: 157
First thing, the Corvette analogy.

It isn't the wide tires or the empty head behind the wheel. It is the tire's inability to stay pliable below 45 degrees. Many UHP tires do not have the compound capabilities to drive on ice or snow. They harden up too fast and don't stick.

Second, it isn't the lowered air pressure that causes the tires to grip better in cold conditions. When you take out air, you rob a tires' ability to dissipate heat efficiently. And when temps drop below freezing, a warmer tire can stay pliable.

Now, there is a big difference between a "summer" tire, "winter" tire and an "all season" tire. Summer tires are designed as a "three season" tire. Meaning it can handle warmer months and warm wet traction. All season tires are designed to perform well in warm months, and be sufficient in winter, or as manufacturers put it, "light snow and icy conditions." Winter tires are made for the cold, plain and simple.

There's now a new category for all-terrain and all-season truck tires. If they have this:



It is capable of service in severe winter conditions. In short, they will grip "well" in snow or icy conditions, although not as effective as true winter tires.

So, airing down summer or all season tires will gain you limited winter traction. It will not make it a winter tire. And it will come at a cost. You will at best cause the tire to wear out faster, or at worst have a heat related tire failure.
Scrmngchicken is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.
Note: All free e-mails have been banned due to mis-use. (Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail, etc.)
Don't have a non-free e-mail address? Click here for a solution: Manual Account Creation
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Thread Tools






Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.