Wider front axle - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 140 Old 05-22-2017, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
paulsheer2
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Wider front axle

In order to get a wider stance, I previously put on wheels with an obnoxious offset.

But I'd rather have a setup where the contact patch is over the ball-joint axis -- which would give the best road feel, no?

(My front axle is now leaking near the right-side drive shaft, and since the front axle is the only thing I have not overhauled, I thought I would do this next and widen it at the same time.)

Now I might cut the axle and lengthen the tubes. This seems like a complicated job. Probably don't want this.

--

Here are my questions please:

1. What are options for longer left and right rzeppa drive shafts assuming I go ahead and lengthen the axle tubes?
2. What is the stock width (mounting-surface to mount-surface) of the ZJ D30?
3. What axle swap options would net me a good 6 inches wider front wheel base??? (i.e. push out the hub mating point 3 inches on each side?)
4. Are there tables of front axle widths anywhere? (I can find none, and I've looked quite hard.)

(fyi, i'll keep 3.73)


93 ZJ 5.2, 3.58 stroked. 242 swap. 2.5" lift. dozens of mods.
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post #2 of 140 Old 05-22-2017, 09:59 PM
kg6mov
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1) Custom RCV's, unless you go with a WJ D30.
2) Stock d30 is 60.5 wms-wms.
3) A ford HP44 with 5 lug outers is about 65" wms-wms, that's about as close to your 6" number as you're likely to get. The WJ is 63.5" which would get you something that you can easily swap into the jeep. The full size actors with 8 lug outers end up at 69" wms-wms.
4) No, not really.

What obnoxious backspace are you running? At your height widening the track width isn't gonna buy you much in terms of stability unless you're running something very weird.


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post #3 of 140 Old 05-22-2017, 10:49 PM
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Your best bet for wider axles would be a matching set of front and rear axles from a JK. There are no bolt-on axles with wider track width available, so it's gonna be part custom job anyways - unless you go with something like Dynatrack setting you up the axle

You are absolutely correct about the scrub radius, you'd optimally want to avoid wheels with way less backspacing than OEM. It causes all sorts of drivebility issues and other side-effect both on road and off road.

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post #4 of 140 Old 05-23-2017, 11:33 PM Thread Starter
paulsheer2
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it's interesting that they will make this for you as a bolt on.

you have three choices of WMS-to-WMS available. I went for the widest one.

(no, i am Not actually going to spend $5k.)


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post #5 of 140 Old 06-03-2017, 09:12 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks,

I'm finding there is no way to get Rzeppa CV joints axles shafts on anything except a Dana 30.
....ok, there are some ridiculously expensive aftermarket Rzeppa joints, but nothing stock.

Can I assume that everyone doing a D44 or D60 axle swap is using U-joints?
Are people happy with U-joints?
Any other ideas?


Otherwise I *think* I have a solution:

Step 1 is to buy this:

http://www.synergymfg.com/Synergy-Je...t-p-30950.html

Step 2 is to buy this donor, 45 minutes drive:

https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/pts/6147348660.html

Then I'm going to cut the C bracket plus a few inches of axle off the donor. Then insert the tubes and weld.

Thoughts?


My final problem is making "something" to extend the inner shaft of the Rzeppa joint.

How can I do this? Custom inner shaft?

93 ZJ 5.2, 3.58 stroked. 242 swap. 2.5" lift. dozens of mods.
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post #6 of 140 Old 06-03-2017, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsheer2 View Post
I'm finding there is no way to get Rzeppa CV joints axles shafts on anything except a Dana 30.
....ok, there are some ridiculously expensive aftermarket Rzeppa joints, but nothing stock.
The only CV- joint shafts worth buying for US- built axles are RCV shafts. They are about 1200-1400$ for a set - and they are about the best quality you can get.
Normal u-joint style alloy axle shafts are around 600-1000$ for a set, so RCVs aren't that expensive really if you keep in mind the quality of them.

Quote:
Can I assume that everyone doing a D44 or D60 axle swap is using U-joints?
A lot of people use u-joint shafts, but there are plenty of people using RCVs as well. It's really up to you how much you want to invest.

Quote:
Are people happy with U-joints?
U-joints are easy and simple, but CV- joints operate much smoother and are stronger when built right.

Stock- style CV shafts on the ZJs aren't built right and are not strong, OEM Spicer U-joint style axle shafts from TJs, ZJs or XJs (as long as they are the larger -260x/760x- syle) are significantly stronger than the OEM CVs are.

Quote:
Otherwise I *think* I have a solution:

Step 1 is to buy this:

http://www.synergymfg.com/Synergy-Je...t-p-30950.html
Inner axle sleeves are a waste of money IMO - either truss the axle or fab outer axle sleeves to increase outer diameter to 3" and wall thickness to 1/2";
* 3" OD x .250" wall DOM tube is stronger than 2.5" OD .500" wall DOM
* 3" OD x .500" wall DOM is almost twice as strong as 2.5" OD .500" wall DOM
* 3" OD x .500" wall DOM is well over twice as strong as 2.5" OD .250" wall DOM

OEM D30 tubes are 2.5" OD .250" wall.



As for getting to the width you're looking for, I'd suggest checking out different inner shaft lengths available. That way you can use readily available shafts at a good price to get the width and center housing location you want and need.

You really should press out the old tubes from the housing, and have new machined DOM tubes pressed in and butt- welded to the housing if you want to fab a custom- width axle. Or get a wide- track axle, and cut the tubes at the ends and re-weld the inner-Cs.
If you're going to cut the axle tubes, and then use pieces of tube to make the axle wider, you MUST use inner axle sleeves around the cut/ weld area to make the tube strong enough. I do not recommend this.

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***Under construction***
1990 XJ (4-door), 4.0 I6, AW4, NP242, PBR 42" tires, Unimog 404 portal axles, 110" WB, full cage + uniframe completely rebuilt, front 3-link + panhard / double triangulated 4-link rear,... ***SOLD***
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post #7 of 140 Old 06-03-2017, 02:26 PM Thread Starter
paulsheer2
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Thanks,

"different inner axle shafts"

Yes, but how/where do I find these?

I will use the inner sleeves for alignment... assuming they are a tight fit. But Ill also truss it.

Im actually eating at a diner right now while the Yard is pulling an axle from a scrap 5.9. $120.



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post #8 of 140 Old 06-03-2017, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsheer2 View Post
Thanks,

"different inner axle shafts"

Yes, but how/where do I find these?

There are about a gazillion different D44s that have been built during the past ~60 years, of which most mid-to-late-70s and newer have 30-spline inner shafts and the correct u-joints. There are plenty of charts available if you google.

Keep in mind using longer inner shafts require you to modify axle tube length.



Quote:
I will use the inner sleeves for alignment... assuming they are a tight fit. But Ill also truss it.
They should be a tight fit.

Quote:
Im actually eating at a diner right now while the Yard is pulling an axle from a scrap 5.9. $120.
Why a 5.9 axle? It gives you zero strength gains. If you're looking for a slightly better bolt-on front axle, you should look for a 90-99 XJ high pinion D30.

If you want a relatively easy stronger swap, a narrow-track Jeep Wagoneer low pinion D44 is the way to go. Then there are the Ford F150/F250/ early- Bronco high- pinion D44 front axles, of which some are good and some are not. If you just use the center housing and do all custom work, just about all Ford HP D44 housing are good.

Or, just get the JK front/ rear D44s from a JK Rubi and fab new brackets. It will give you about a 5" track width increase over the ZJ axles (ZJ/ TJ/XJ axles are ~60.5" WMS-WMS, JKs are slightly over 65" WMS-WMS).

1998 Grand Cherokee 5.9 LX daily driver, 1.75" BB, 32" KM2s, HPD30 Eaton e-locker/D44a stock LSD, 4.56 gears, custom- fabbed tube bumpers and tube fenders,...


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1990 XJ Limited (4-door), 4.0 I6, AW4, NP242, ***rolled and totalled @ 165k miles***

***Under construction***
1990 XJ (4-door), 4.0 I6, AW4, NP242, PBR 42" tires, Unimog 404 portal axles, 110" WB, full cage + uniframe completely rebuilt, front 3-link + panhard / double triangulated 4-link rear,... ***SOLD***
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post #9 of 140 Old 06-03-2017, 02:57 PM Thread Starter
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My priority is CV not U. And then also not wanting to spend on those super-expensive CVs.

Are there cheep CVs available for the D44?

If not, then Im staying with the D30.

What are the unit bearing differences and spline differences between the D44 and D30.

The axle shafts are the usual point of failure no?


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post #10 of 140 Old 06-03-2017, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsheer2 View Post
Are there cheep CVs available for the D44?
Nope.

Quote:
If not, then Im staying with the D30.
ZJ CVs are the only cheap ones you can find on the D30s. And they are weak..

Quote:
What are the unit bearing differences and spline differences between the D44 and D30.
D30 uses 27-spline inner shafts, there are aftermarket 30-splines. Outers are 27-spline, there are 30-spline outers.
Traditional D44 front axles do not use unit bearings at all. It's really only JK Rubi front D44s that use unit bearings.
D44 inner shafts are 30-spline, and they match the upgraded D30 inner 30-spline shafts.



Quote:
The axle shafts are the usual point of failure no?
On a stock LP D30 from a ZJ with CV shafts, the failure point in most cases is the short side inner shaft neckdown right before the CV joint - or the CV joint.
On a stock HP D30 using OEM U-joint shafts, it's often the axle shaft or R&P.
On a stock LP D30 with U-joint alloy shafts you're gonna kill the R&P
On a stock HP D30 with alloy shafts you're either gonna kill U-joints or R&P

1998 Grand Cherokee 5.9 LX daily driver, 1.75" BB, 32" KM2s, HPD30 Eaton e-locker/D44a stock LSD, 4.56 gears, custom- fabbed tube bumpers and tube fenders,...


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1990 XJ Limited (4-door), 4.0 I6, AW4, NP242, ***rolled and totalled @ 165k miles***

***Under construction***
1990 XJ (4-door), 4.0 I6, AW4, NP242, PBR 42" tires, Unimog 404 portal axles, 110" WB, full cage + uniframe completely rebuilt, front 3-link + panhard / double triangulated 4-link rear,... ***SOLD***
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post #11 of 140 Old 06-03-2017, 03:34 PM
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WJ d30 is wider and uses CV joints.

Still weak.


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Originally Posted by Texas ZJ1 View Post
I heard someone yell "mall crawler" from the back porch. I'll go see who said that. Be right back.
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post #12 of 140 Old 06-03-2017, 04:07 PM Thread Starter
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For this cheep I'm happy to have this even just for the purpose of taking measurements off it:

I like watching OTHER people get dirty while I stand around and drink coffee:



Unloading:

93 ZJ 5.2, 3.58 stroked. 242 swap. 2.5" lift. dozens of mods.
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post #13 of 140 Old 06-03-2017, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kg6mov View Post
WJ d30 is wider and uses CV joints.

Still weak.
I forgot the obvious

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1990 XJ Limited (4-door), 4.0 I6, AW4, NP242, ***rolled and totalled @ 165k miles***

***Under construction***
1990 XJ (4-door), 4.0 I6, AW4, NP242, PBR 42" tires, Unimog 404 portal axles, 110" WB, full cage + uniframe completely rebuilt, front 3-link + panhard / double triangulated 4-link rear,... ***SOLD***
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post #14 of 140 Old 06-03-2017, 06:56 PM Thread Starter
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ok, thanks -- that all is important information.

here is a high-pinion Dana 44 housing for $150 shipping inclusive:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-1994-FO...-/152251294742

Can I use this? I have only a 2.5 inch lift and it looks like it might hit the drivers side exhaust downpipe.

Does this need the standard cut:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/m...-373/overview/

or a reverse cut??? ===>

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/m...-373f/overview

93 ZJ 5.2, 3.58 stroked. 242 swap. 2.5" lift. dozens of mods.
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post #15 of 140 Old 06-03-2017, 07:22 PM
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The old style d44 is 5 1/2" from tube center to bottom of the pumpkin (or top). The d30 isn't much smaller, and people have no issues running the HP30's in lowered ZJ's.


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