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Unread 05-29-2012, 09:25 AM   #16
hdrocknroll
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That is the same as what mine was doing before I fixed Front DS,/ the vibrations start at ~ 35mph and get worse with speed, not affected by accel/decel much.
I also had other vibs. from bad motor and trans mounts, which went away after I replaced them.

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Unread 05-29-2012, 10:19 AM   #17
4Slow9erHybrid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdrocknroll View Post
That is the same as what mine was doing before I fixed Front DS,/ the vibrations start at ~ 35mph and get worse with speed, not affected by accel/decel much.
I also had other vibs. from bad motor and trans mounts, which went away after I replaced them.
Good to know. So the vibes in my case are also likely due to a DS issue: same speed range as in your case, and the whole Jeep vibrates/shakes as if I was driving on rough road surface. I'll measure the runout and also reindex the DS in the 4 possible orientations, just to make sure it's not just a runout issue. I'll also remove the rear DS to see if the vibes remain. But I have a bad feeling I need a new front DS.
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Unread 05-29-2012, 10:27 AM   #18
4Slow9erHybrid
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Forgot to ask. Did you notice any signs (roughness, binding) of the centering ball being bad before you disassembled the double-cardan joint? I'm also wondering why you still had the vibrations after rebuilding the original front DS.
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Unread 05-29-2012, 10:47 AM   #19
ml98188
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Might want to try this trick.
I've been chasing a similar vibration on my '98. Seems to be coming from the rear - was traveling to amidships.
Had drivelines rebuilt - helped some. Replaced rear outer WBs- no help. Figured it might be the Trans Mount.
Talked to the guy at Ironman - great info BTW. Said his mount wouldn't help but replace with Mopar Mount (81.00 from Autowarehouse.com).
Also make two 4" x 4" spacers out of 1/4 inch sheet stock and put them between the crossmember and the frame. This will help correct the an
inherent problem with the driveline angle that causes some of the vibes the GC is famous for.
Did that and, while it didn't cure the whole problem, it went a long way towards smoothing things out.
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Unread 05-29-2012, 11:42 AM   #20
4Slow9erHybrid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ml98188 View Post
Might want to try this trick.
I've been chasing a similar vibration on my '98. Seems to be coming from the rear - was traveling to amidships.
Had drivelines rebuilt - helped some. Replaced rear outer WBs- no help. Figured it might be the Trans Mount.
Talked to the guy at Ironman - great info BTW. Said his mount wouldn't help but replace with Mopar Mount (81.00 from Autowarehouse.com).
Also make two 4" x 4" spacers out of 1/4 inch sheet stock and put them between the crossmember and the frame. This will help correct the an
inherent problem with the driveline angle that causes some of the vibes the GC is famous for.
Did that and, while it didn't cure the whole problem, it went a long way towards smoothing things out.
I have new tranny and passenger side engine mounts, Anchor brand. Didn't make any difference. I also have rear adjustable lower control arms, dialed in the pinion angle pointing down by 0.5 degrees compared to TC output shaft. (was pointing up by 0.5 degrees). No difference.
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Unread 05-29-2012, 12:12 PM   #21
4Slow9erHybrid
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Some useful info on vibration diagnosis by Billy Ray posted on JU:

Billy Ray
10-16-2006, 09:23 AM

Be sure to print this out because I probably won't do this again.

Vehicle vibration can be caused by:
² Tire/wheel unbalance or excessive runout
² Defective tires with extreme tread wear
² Nylon overlay flat spots (performance tires only)
² Incorrect wheel bearing adjustment (if applicable)
² Loose or worn suspension/steering components
² Certain tire tread patterns
² Incorrect drive shaft angles or excessive drive
shaft/yoke runout
² Defective or worn U-joints
² Excessive brake rotor or drum runout
² Loose engine or transmission supports/mounts
² And by engine operated accessories
Refer to the appropriate Groups in this manual
for additional information.

VIBRATION TYPES
There are two types of vehicle vibration:
² Mechanical
² Audible.
Mechanical vehicle vibration can be felt through
the seats, floor pan and/or steering wheel.
Audible vehicle vibration is heard above normal
background noise. The sound can be a droning or
drumming noise.
Vibrations are sensitive to change in engine torque,
vehicle speed or engine speed.

ENGINE TORQUE SENSITIVE VIBRATION
This vibration can be increased or decreased by:
² Accelerating
² Decelerating
² Coasting
² Maintaining a constant vehicle speed

VEHICLE SPEED SENSITIVE VIBRATION
This vibration condition always occurs at the same
vehicle speed regardless of engine torque or engine
speed.

ENGINE SPEED (RPM) SENSITIVE VIBRATION
This vibration occurs at varying engine speeds. It
can be isolated by increasing or decreasing the engine
speed with the transmission in NEUTRAL position.

VIBRATION DIAGNOSIS
A vibration diagnosis should always begin with a
10 mile (16 km) trip (to warm the vehicle and tires).
Then a road test to identify the vibration. Corrective
action should not be attempted until the vibration
type has been identified via a road test.
During the road test, drive the vehicle on a smooth
surface. If vibration exists, note and record the following
information:
² Identify the vehicle speed range when the vibration
occurs
² Identify the type of vibration
² Identify the vibration sensitivity
² Determine if the vibration is affected by changes
in vehicle speed, engine speed and engine torque.
When the vibration has been identified, refer to the
Vibration Diagnosis chart for causes. (see below)Consider correcting
only those causes coded in the chart that are
related to the vibration condition.
Refer to the following cause codes and descriptions
for explanations when referring to the chart.

http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n...n%20Diagnosis/


TRR—Tire and Wheel Radial Runout: Vehicle
speed sensitive, mechanical vibration. The runout
will not cause vibration below 20 mph (32 km/h).
WH—Wheel Hop: Vehicle speed sensitive, mechanical
vibration. The wheel hop generates rapid
up-down movement in the steering wheel. The vibration
is most noticeable in the 20 - 40 mph (32 - 64
km/h) range. The wheel hop will not cause vibration
below 20 mph (32 km/h). Wheel hop is caused by a
tire/wheel that has a radial runout of more than
0.045 of-an-inch (1.14 mm). If wheel runout is acceptable
and combined runout cannot be reduced by repositioning
the tire on wheel, replace tire.
TB—Tire/Wheel Balance: Vehicle speed sensitive,
mechanical vibration. Static tire/wheel unbalance
will not cause vibration below 30 mph (46 km/h). Dynamic
tire/wheel unbalance will not cause vibration
below 40 mph (64 km/h).
TLR—Tire/Wheel Lateral runout: Vehicle speed
sensitive, mechanical vibration. The runout will not
cause vibration below 50 - 55 mph (80 - 88 km/h). Excessive
lateral runout will also cause front-end
shimmy.
TW—Tire Wear: Vehicle speed sensitive, audible
vibration. Abnormal tire wear causes small vibration
in the 30 - 55 mph (88 km/h) range. This will produce
a whine noise at high speed. The whine will
change to a growl noise when the speed is reduced.
W—Tire Waddle: Vehicle speed sensitive, mechanical
vibration. Irregular tire uniformity can cause
side-to-side motion during speeds up to 15 mph (24
km/h). If the motion is excessive, identify the defective
tire and replace it.
UAJ—Universal Joint (Drive Shaft) Angles:
Torque/vehicle speed sensitive, mechanical/audible vibration.
Incorrect drive shaft angles cause mechanical
vibration below 20 mph (32 km/h) and in the 70
mph (112 km/h) range. The incorrect angles can also
produce an audible vibration in the 20 - 50 mph (32 -
80 km/h) range. Caster adjustment could be required
to correct the angles.
UJ—Universal Joints: Engine torque/vehicle
speed sensitive, mechanical/audible vibration. If the U-joint is worn it will cause vibration with almost
any vehicle speed/engine torque condition.
DSY—Drive Shaft and Yokes: Vehicle speed sensitive,
mechanical/audible vibration. The condition
will not cause vibration below 35 mph (56 km/h). Excessive
runout, unbalance or dents and bends in the
shaft will cause the vibration. Identify the actual
cause and repair/replace as necessary.
WB—Wheel Bearings: Vehicle speed sensitive,
mechanical/audible vibration. Loose wheel bearings
cause shimmy-like vibration at 35 mph (56 km/h)
and above. Worn bearings will also produce a growl
noise at low vehicle speed and a whine noise at high
vehicle speed. The wheel bearings must be adjusted
or replaced, as applicable.
AN—Axle Noise: Engine torque/vehicle speed sensitive,
mechanical/audible vibration. The axle will not
cause mechanical vibration unless the axle shaft is
bent. Worn or damaged axle pinion shaft or differential
gears and bearings will cause noise. Replace the
defective component(s) as necessary.
SSC—Suspension and Steering Components:
Vehicle speed sensitive, mechanical vibration. Worn
suspension/steering components can cause mechanical
vibration at speeds above 20 mph (32 km/h).
Identify and repair or replace the defective component(
s).
EA—Engine Driven Accessories: Engine speed
sensitive, mechanical/audible vibration. Vibration can
be caused by loose or broken A/C compressor, PS
pump, water pump, generator or brackets, etc. Usually
more noticeable when the transmission is shifted
into the NEUTRAL position and the engine speed
(rpm) increased. Inspect the engine driven accessories
in the engine compartment. Repair/replace as
necessary.
ADB—Accessory Drive Belts: Engine speed sensitive,
audible vibration. Worn drive belts can cause a
vibration that produces either a droning, fluttering or
rumbling noise. Inspect the drive belt(s) and tighten/
replace as necessary.
DEM—Damaged Engine or Transmission Support
Mounts: Engine speed sensitive, mechanical/
audible vibration. If a support mount is worn, noise
or vibration will occur. Inspect the support mounts
and repair/replace as necessary.
ES—Exhaust System: Engine speed sensitive,
mechanical/audible vibration. If loose exhaust components
contact the vehicle body they will cause noise
and vibration. Inspect the exhaust system for loose,
broken and mis-aligned components and repair/replace
as necessary.
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Unread 05-29-2012, 03:32 PM   #22
hdrocknroll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Slow9erHybrid View Post
Forgot to ask. Did you notice any signs (roughness, binding) of the centering ball being bad before you disassembled the double-cardan joint? I'm also wondering why you still had the vibrations after rebuilding the original front DS.
Yes I could tell there was some binding of the centering ball once I removed the DS.
That's why I disassembled the double-cardan joint.
Not exactly sure why, I still had the vibrations after rebuilding the original front DS, although they were not as bad after that.
The center pin where the ball goes, or something ,there I think was bent,whacked out.
When I put on the new center yoke, there was no binding,or roughness, but still had vibration, that disappeared as soon as I took the the DS back off, so the next logical step was get a different DS.
I pressed out the new joints I had put on,put them in the JY DS, voilą no more vibes.
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Unread 05-30-2012, 11:04 AM   #23
4Slow9erHybrid
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Yesterday I checked the runout of the front DS. At the front diff end, the runout was very small 0.004", closest to the double cardan (DC) joint it was way too much: 0.026". I remounted the DC end 180degrees, and remeasured the runout: 0.017". I think this is still too much. The high and low spots stayed in the same position, which means the runout is mainly due to the driveshaft. Test drove, the vibrations are significantly less pronounced, but still not good enough.

Next, I'll remove the DS and see if I still have noises and the steering shimmy. I think the front hubs are bad. This thing is a money pit, grrrrr...
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Unread 05-30-2012, 11:06 PM   #24
4Slow9erHybrid
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Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 680
Quote:
Originally Posted by ml98188 View Post
Might want to try this trick.
I've been chasing a similar vibration on my '98. Seems to be coming from the rear - was traveling to amidships.
Had drivelines rebuilt - helped some. Replaced rear outer WBs- no help. Figured it might be the Trans Mount.
Talked to the guy at Ironman - great info BTW. Said his mount wouldn't help but replace with Mopar Mount (81.00 from Autowarehouse.com).
Also make two 4" x 4" spacers out of 1/4 inch sheet stock and put them between the crossmember and the frame. This will help correct the an
inherent problem with the driveline angle that causes some of the vibes the GC is famous for.
Did that and, while it didn't cure the whole problem, it went a long way towards smoothing things out.
Why Mopar trans mount? Anything special about it vs aftermarket ones?
__________________
1997 JGC Laredo 4.0 4x4 99900mi * 0W30 German Castrol since 75k * 225/75/R15 Firestone Destination AT on Ravine rims * winter 235/75/R15 Bridgestone Blizzak DM-V1 * UC suspension * Monroe Reflex Monotube shocks * factory skids * KOR steering brace * rear Addco SB * Magnaflow cat and cat back system * complete 5.9 interior
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Unread 05-30-2012, 11:27 PM   #25
hdrocknroll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Slow9erHybrid View Post
Why Mopar trans mount? Anything special about it vs aftermarket ones?
I used Anchor brand, only difference I saw was the steel was a tiny bit thicker on the original
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[QUOTE=rooster51;13297693] Whats the worse that can happen? Your jeeps already broke.



[/QUOTE]
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Unread 05-31-2012, 12:28 AM   #26
ml98188
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Not real sure cause I haven't actually seen a mount from Autozone, Napa, or any of the import stuff flooding the market these days. I was going on the recommendation of
someone that does Jeeps for a living. Other experience has shown, though, that 90% of the time OE replacement parts do the job better and longer so, unless there is some clear advantage,
I usually go that way. Got the Mopar mount from Autowarehouse.com $10 cheaper and three days quicker than from the dealer BTW.
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Unread 05-31-2012, 09:24 AM   #27
4Slow9erHybrid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ml98188 View Post
Not real sure cause I haven't actually seen a mount from Autozone, Napa, or any of the import stuff flooding the market these days. I was going on the recommendation of
someone that does Jeeps for a living. Other experience has shown, though, that 90% of the time OE replacement parts do the job better and longer so, unless there is some clear advantage,
I usually go that way. Got the Mopar mount from Autowarehouse.com $10 cheaper and three days quicker than from the dealer BTW.
Ok, I thought there was a known issue with aftermarket trans mounts. Normally I buy Mopar stuff, but the trans mount at the local dealer is ~$190, cross border shipping kills any savings unless I combine a bunch of items in 1 shipment. Mopar parts are expensive in Canada, generally 2-3 times more than US.
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Unread 05-31-2012, 09:52 AM   #28
ml98188
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Ouch....It's really ironic too cause the mount says "Made in Canada".. Go figure.
You might want to try Autopartswarehouse.com. next time. They seem to have Mopar for some of the important stuff.
Ordered the mount on Monday - got it via UPS out of Portland on Tuesday. $81.00US with free shipping to US.
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Unread 05-31-2012, 11:13 AM   #29
hdrocknroll
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By the way I got the Anchor trans mount from Rock Auto
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Unread 06-01-2012, 04:04 PM   #30
4Slow9erHybrid
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Here's an update. I removed the front DS but still had vibrations and noise, slightly less pronounced. WTH? So I decided to check the front axle thoroughly. Followed this video to check the front bearings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=IpdghLj6AhE

I couldn't find any play (it was < 0.001"), no roughness when turning the hubs, even listened with stethoscope. Interestingly, when I removed both wheels and brakes and turned one hub by hand, the (brand new) spider gears were making a clicking noise (the other hub was rotating in the opposite direction, pinion stationary). If I held either hub stationary, then no clicking. I guess it's normal as you'll never encounter a situation when the front wheels spin in opposite direction.

Then I decided to recheck the rear DS and noticed a clunk. It turned out that for some reason the space in the rear yoke between the tabs is a hair (~0.5mm) wider than the greasable spicer u-joint. I reclamped the u-joint clamps after I pushed the caps in. Now it has no play. Need to test drive. Will update...
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