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Unread 04-01-2011, 03:06 PM   #1
torchd
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1998 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Truth About Wires (MSD, Magnecor, Taylor and more)

So I'm not here to start anything, I jsut wanted to post up what is going on another forum that I visit everyday. Granted it isn't jeep related, it's related to my Trans Am (LSx motors)but hey we all use wires...

So Granatelli (GMS) made a thread claiming that their wires have a 0 ohm drop when you measure their wire on a voltmeter. Here is how they advertise their wires..
  • Direct OEM replacement, exceeds OEM specifications, OBD-II computer safe
  • Increase power to the spark plug up to 400% over stock
  • Customers have reported up to 15HP (normally aspirated) & 35HP (s/c, turbo, & nitrous). Average gains on an otherwise stock motor are 5hp N/A and 12 to 15 with factory forced induction
  • 0 Ohm resistance, no RFI / EMI interference thanks to patented protector ring
  • Patented* design works with all fuel injection systems, street cars and race cars
  • Solid stainless connector cable with stainless snap lock spark plug connectors
  • High temperature silicone boots, 8MM jacket with fiberglass-reinforced braid resists temperatures up to 500 degrees f (1200 degree f. boots optional).
  • Ideal for use with aftermarket headers and/or turbocharger systems
  • Includes all necessary hardware
  • Over 600 fitments!
* Granatelli O ohm wires are patent protected by United States Patent number 7,185,622. This patent covers our unique method of producing ignition wires of extremely low resistance while maintaining very high noise suppression. The benefit of this invention is that full electrical energy from the ignition source is transmitted to the spark plug. The end result of the application of this method is increased horsepower, torque and fuel economy.

So a lot of people on the website bashed him calling BS and started a ruckus. So all GMS did was back his product up. He posted 3 videos of jsut a wire swap on a Vette, 03/04 Cobra and a Ford GT40 where they all gained +10 RWHP and +15 RWTQ. This was on back to back dynos with hardly any cool down time, in fact they made sure the operating temp was the same as the first run so there was no variations.

Here is a video that GMS posted using an MSD board to test ohm drop. There was 8 wires tested, all stated in the video and displayed. #2 being wire bing tested was magnecore wires very bad.. They experienced an 1600 ohm drop..

So the purpose of me making this thread is, again not start any problems, but to get eduacated. To bad GMS doesn't make wires for Jeeps.. I'm trying to get him to make me a set And I will be picking up a set for my LS1 Trans Am. So I guess the aftermarket wires I would go with would be MSD (for the Jeep), since they have a low ohm drop..

With that being said, I am using Magnecore wires bc I was sold on how awesome they were, then I saw the tests.. And it wasn't good for them. So here's the video

Thanks guys for listening



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[b]1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo[/b]
2" BB Pucks | SkyJacker Hydro Shocks | Rubicon Wheels | Cooper 245/75/16 Tires

[b][color=red]2002 Trans Am[/b][/color]
Cam, Full Exhaust, Stock Heads, Stock LS6 Intake and Stock 10 bolt with 3.42s
[b]420 RWHP and 382 RWHTQ[/b]
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Unread 04-01-2011, 03:11 PM   #2
tritt007
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Interesting,i use performance ign.10mm live wires, a davis screamin demon 45,000v coil, performance cap and rotor , and ngk vpowers gapped at 0.055 , quite a hp gain.
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Unread 04-01-2011, 03:21 PM   #3
torchd
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On my Trans Am I have MSD wires and NGK TR6 plugs gapped at .030.. But after seeing the testimonial by GMS, I think I am switching to the GMS wires and going to switch to the NGK TR55 plugs gapped at .050.. The TR6 plugs are a little to cold for my application.

In the Jeep I am using the Kolak ignition kit.. It is a GREAT kit, absolutely NO COMPLAINTS at all.. Just wish the Magnecore wires didn't have a 1600 ohm drop
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[b]1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo[/b]
2" BB Pucks | SkyJacker Hydro Shocks | Rubicon Wheels | Cooper 245/75/16 Tires

[b][color=red]2002 Trans Am[/b][/color]
Cam, Full Exhaust, Stock Heads, Stock LS6 Intake and Stock 10 bolt with 3.42s
[b]420 RWHP and 382 RWHTQ[/b]
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Unread 08-21-2015, 02:17 PM   #4
JOHNWON454
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I realize that this is an old thread, but it is a thread that swayed me to purchase these Granatelli wires for my 93 ZJ w/5.2
My experience turned into a bit of a learning curve about EMI "Electro-Magnetic Interference" Being these wires are made with a solid stainless steel conductor, EMI is an inherent by-product in the application of our ignition system. Granatelli has suppressor rings installed onto each wire to combat RFI & EMI. I can only assume that with my Jeep being 22 years old that the insulation of the conductors within the wiring harness is not what it once was... So just want to share my experience so that others may be able to understand what may be going on with their vehicles after installing these wires.. My vehicle was only receiving PM work and had no issues prior to the install.
I changed the dist. cap & rotor, coil to MSD, wires to these Granatelli wires. The performance was like WTF! The idle was erratic and cutting out. The overdrive would also kick in and out randomly.. I even unhooked the battery overnight in excess of 8 hours trying to get the computer to relearn. Same issue with no improvement after multiple cool downs and full temp cycles. Decided to remove the MSD coil and replace the stock one and seen a huge improvement. Turns out the higher output coil caused more EMI than the stock because of higher output. But still the issue persisted.. Got to researching on the net and got a feeling that EMI could be the problem. I re-routed the coil wire further away from a wiring harness and problem seems to be solved..??
However after talking to Granatelli about the issue, a tech thinks maybe one of the suppression rings could be damaged or cracked...?? He was willing to exchange them for another set. I thought; This is my daughter's vehicle while away at college, I'm not going to take any further chances with this EMI issue. So Granatelli said I could return for refund.. This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to purchase a set that is known for excellent EMI / RFI suppression.
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Unread 08-21-2015, 08:00 PM   #5
jlindseyjr
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I wonder if this would work.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...hieldbraid.php
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Unread 08-21-2015, 08:32 PM   #6
JOHNWON454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlindseyjr View Post
That is an interesting idea.. I think it would definitely help..
However, there are other considerations to take into account for a street wire construction that has computer management as well as the longevity of the wire..
Below is a link that can be copied and pasted to a write up that is very interesting to me...

http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/main.htm
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Unread 08-21-2015, 09:25 PM   #7
ZeeJay1997
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I'll throw my opinion out here (FWIW) and it relates to the I6, not the V-8.

There is no benefit to an upgraded coil/ignition and you'll get the least amount of EMI from carbon core OEM wires. They are inexpensive and the correct resistance (per FSM) for the stock coil used with stock spark plugs. The coil is designed for the PCM. Anything above and beyond stock is putting lipstick on a pig.

I validated the EMI statement with a scope meter. i had some store brand "high performance" wires on mine and borrowed a scope meter from work. Using battery ground as reference, the positive lead was picking up a constant 15v with spikes up to 50v in thin air with the hood closed. With the carbon core wires, it wouldn't show over 5.

If you have a cheap voltmeter, it can double as an EMI indicator by simply putting it on AC and holding it near the ignition wires. Not too scientific, but is does give an indication of leaking ignition wires. You can also sometimes hear it by putting the radio on AM and listening to the dead frequencies.
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Unread 08-22-2015, 12:15 AM   #8
Uniblurb
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Interesting Johnwon and remember reading your other thread about the interference problems with the Granatelli wires.

Yep Zee, I remember when we both went with the "Autolite Professional Series" plug/coil wires which were junk had to change them out.

Thought your use of a volt meter set to AC or setting your ZJ radio to AM was interesting on picking up EMI. Kinda off-topic but I'll come back to this.

Take a battery operated AM/FM radio set to AM and set it between stations with volume turned up. Best to have an antenna raised then walk around your house pointing the antennae at electronic devices, florescent lights, power cords, junction boxes, timers, battery charges, etc.. The louder buzzing sound coming out of the radio the more EMI/RFI being put out. Even bad street lights or outside lighting can put out this interference. If high enough this will interfere with other near electronic devices, cable/satellite TV signals, internet, etc..

I was shocked on how many problems I found and had some fixing to do. Also found out if you plug any problem devices into an "Isobar Surge Suppressor" it will filter most all of this inference out. Sounds like a spam ad but it's not. Learned this from an electronics forum I belonged to for years.

Guess the point is you could probably use a portable AM/FM radio set to AM the same way in checking for any EMI coming from the ZJ wiring. You may even be able to pinpoint it with having the antenna pointed close at certain wiring. I'll give it a shot sometime and let you know what I find.
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Unread 08-22-2015, 05:48 AM   #9
JOHNWON454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeJay1997 View Post
I'll throw my opinion out here (FWIW) and it relates to the I6, not the V-8.

There is no benefit to an upgraded coil/ignition and you'll get the least amount of EMI from carbon core OEM wires. They are inexpensive and the correct resistance (per FSM) for the stock coil used with stock spark plugs. The coil is designed for the PCM. Anything above and beyond stock is putting lipstick on a pig.

I validated the EMI statement with a scope meter. i had some store brand "high performance" wires on mine and borrowed a scope meter from work. Using battery ground as reference, the positive lead was picking up a constant 15v with spikes up to 50v in thin air with the hood closed. With the carbon core wires, it wouldn't show over 5.

If you have a cheap voltmeter, it can double as an EMI indicator by simply putting it on AC and holding it near the ignition wires. Not too scientific, but is does give an indication of leaking ignition wires. You can also sometimes hear it by putting the radio on AM and listening to the dead frequencies.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject. That is very interesting to me, especially now! As of now, my daughter is tentatively coming in next weekend.. She had conflicts that prevent her from coming in on labor day weekend, that said; I need to make a move on this sooner than later.
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Unread 08-22-2015, 05:52 AM   #10
JOHNWON454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uniblurb View Post
Interesting Johnwon and remember reading your other thread about the interference problems with the Granatelli wires.

Yep Zee, I remember when we both went with the "Autolite Professional Series" plug/coil wires which were junk had to change them out.

Thought your use of a volt meter set to AC or setting your ZJ radio to AM was interesting on picking up EMI. Kinda off-topic but I'll come back to this.

Take a battery operated AM/FM radio set to AM and set it between stations with volume turned up. Best to have an antenna raised then walk around your house pointing the antennae at electronic devices, florescent lights, power cords, junction boxes, timers, battery charges, etc.. The louder buzzing sound coming out of the radio the more EMI/RFI being put out. Even bad street lights or outside lighting can put out this interference. If high enough this will interfere with other near electronic devices, cable/satellite TV signals, internet, etc..

I was shocked on how many problems I found and had some fixing to do. Also found out if you plug any problem devices into an "Isobar Surge Suppressor" it will filter most all of this inference out. Sounds like a spam ad but it's not. Learned this from an electronics forum I belonged to for years.

Guess the point is you could probably use a portable AM/FM radio set to AM the same way in checking for any EMI coming from the ZJ wiring. You may even be able to pinpoint it with having the antenna pointed close at certain wiring. I'll give it a shot sometime and let you know what I find.
I had not even thought about EMI issues within my house...
May have something to do with my internet router always needing reset..??
Thank you too for sharing on the subject.
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Unread 08-22-2015, 07:09 AM   #11
jay-h
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Couple of thoughts here:

The only time wires cause a significant increase in horsepower is if the system was working so badly that lots of fuel was unburned. The OEM system, of course, needed to pass EPA approval (which includes proving that a properly maintained system will continue to operate as designed with high mileage). A vehicle will NOT get EPA approval with unburned fuel coming through. Giving you 4x more spark, does NOT give you 4x more power (it may give you no more power at all).

1600 ohms vs "0 ohms" or whatever is a meaningless measure. At spark voltages 1600 ohms is not much different than a copper wire and depending on ignition system design, it may help suppress after spark transients.

Magnetic impedance suppression is a very effective technique, but it was introduced mainly because modern computerized engine compartments are very sensitive to EMI. It's of less importance on older vehicles.

On older vehicles, low resistance (as compared to the 8000-12000 ohms on pre computer vehicles) means that the coil is facing a different load than it was designed for, and may be less effective. But if you change the coil, than your old ignition circuitry (like the duraspark on older YJs) is now facing different loading characteristics. Now the system may still work, but pretty much if you really want to modernize, you need to move to matching module, coil and wires.

Advertising that makes a big deal about patents is a bit of a red flag (though occasionally legitimate products play that game). The patent office does not test how good an idea works. It just has to meet certain criteria for originality etc. It's not an indication that something is any good. Extra 'filters' etc, may do some good, but often they just serve to make the product look more techie to the buyer.

Good wires provide minimal (but not zero) EMI, good heat and water resistance, and hopefully last a decent length of time. Considering the number of 10 year old cars with the factory wires still in place, OEM is probably not a bad choice.
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Unread 08-22-2015, 08:33 AM   #12
ZeeJay1997
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The FSM spec for stock wires is Min 250ohms/in and Max 1000ohms/in. That's for all engines.
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Unread 09-10-2015, 09:26 AM   #13
variable
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Man, this is all making me re-think all kinds of stuff...

So, ZeeJay, when you were poking around, what areas seemed to be the noisiest? I've been considering putting a microcontroller and some antennas in the engine bay (got some extra room when I installed that K&N intake) and was already curious about interference, but now I'm glad I haven't installed anything yet!

I've a 93 ZJ 5.2, (or a 92 ZJ if you go by the manufacturing date...) so I'm guessing there's plenty of noise, but I would think that even at that point in time, the ECU would be at least somewhat sensitive to EMI, yet I see very little - if anything - in the way of shielding (unless you count the plastic split loom crap lol!)

I'd been wondering about the stock IR keyless entry remotes... now I'm wondering if the choice is related
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Unread 09-10-2015, 09:27 AM   #14
variable
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On that note... having replaced my wires/coil with MSD and some other brand (wires), anyone know off hand what the stock wires cost?
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Unread 09-10-2015, 10:09 AM   #15
ZeeJay1997
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Denso 671-8117 for the V-8... 31 bucks plus shipping on Amazon.
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