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Unread 12-16-2009, 05:22 PM   #16
MarkoPo
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I hate ABS in the winter. I can't tell you how many time I had to drive into the curb to stop the vehicle because the ABS would let it keep rolling. I developed a habit of pulling the emergency brake to at least lock up the back tires to stop in snow. That does make the vehicle stop quicker, no question about it.

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Unread 12-16-2009, 05:48 PM   #17
ratmonkey
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i've watched people in abs equipped cars slide hundreds of feet into things, although in a nice straight line, in snow/icy conditions where my non-abs equipped car stopped just a little worse than usual in the same spot.

abs is terrible in anything other than damp and dry conditions.
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Unread 12-16-2009, 06:55 PM   #18
comptiger5000
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I agree. ABS in winter can be a nightmare. A really good ABS system is one thing, but many are not. I'd wire a switch into the wiring from one of the front ABS sensors. Then you have a kill switch, and don't lose the speedo.
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Unread 12-16-2009, 08:57 PM   #19
tsconver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comptiger5000 View Post
I agree. ABS in winter can be a nightmare. A really good ABS system is one thing, but many are not. I'd wire a switch into the wiring from one of the front ABS sensors. Then you have a kill switch, and don't lose the speedo.
good idea, but again if you get in an accident you are liable to loose your coverage and open yourself up to a lawsuit even if it was not your fault if they find that wire and switch.
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Unread 12-16-2009, 09:19 PM   #20
ronsaun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkoPo View Post
I hate ABS in the winter. I can't tell you how many time I had to drive into the curb to stop the vehicle because the ABS would let it keep rolling. I developed a habit of pulling the emergency brake to at least lock up the back tires to stop in snow. That does make the vehicle stop quicker, no question about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratmonkey View Post
i've watched people in abs equipped cars slide hundreds of feet into things, although in a nice straight line, in snow/icy conditions where my non-abs equipped car stopped just a little worse than usual in the same spot.

abs is terrible in anything other than damp and dry conditions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizardstsi View Post
What you guys are saying about never being able to outbrake the ABS unit is true AND false.

In the dry and wet, sure the ABS wins all the time. But throw in gravel or snow or any other loose surfaces and ABS actaully INCREASES stopping distance.

"In gravel, sand and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly"

Took that from wiki but it's been written in many other places.
Quote:
Originally Posted by comptiger5000 View Post
I agree. ABS in winter can be a nightmare. A really good ABS system is one thing, but many are not. I'd wire a switch into the wiring from one of the front ABS sensors. Then you have a kill switch, and don't lose the speedo.
lots of good support for the idea that abs sucks in snow AND gravel. i to have had to head for the curb or shoulder/ditch numerous times to avoid an accident due to abs lack of stopping ability also. i am old school and if you didnt spend alot of your life without abs it would certainely be hard to agree with those of us who have! and thats ok as well. to each his own. i like the switch idea! might try it. thanks to all, even those in disagreement. ron
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Unread 12-16-2009, 09:54 PM   #21
RoadWarriorWJ
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Another interesting article. http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/ABS_offroad.html

Do our jeeps shut off abs in part time? (referring to WJ's)

http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/ABS_parttime.html
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Unread 12-16-2009, 10:39 PM   #22
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My 2 cents... I deplore ABS driving around on trails with a 2 inch shoulder and a 300 foot drop.... ABS will actually allow me to drive over the edge if I am braking on a switchback and hit a washboard/bumps.... You get the idea... NO way am I going to use that crap on a dangerous trail.
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Unread 12-17-2009, 06:08 AM   #23
srad711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizardstsi View Post
What you guys are saying about never being able to outbrake the ABS unit is true AND false.

In the dry and wet, sure the ABS wins all the time. But throw in gravel or snow or any other loose surfaces and ABS actaully INCREASES stopping distance.

"In gravel, sand and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly"

Took that from wiki but it's been written in many other places.
This is pretty much on point. But just to let everyone know ABS does NOT shorten braking distances period. ABS merely allows wheels not to lock and allows added control while braking. In a straight line this will usually increase stopping distances in snow/sand/gravel/dry (wet is usually the exception). As an engineer who has studied ABS systems for about 10yrs now I can tell you the most modern day ABS systems with EBD/brake poportioning/brake assist/fade compensation/automatic rotor drying, do help much more than the older systems. Many Many tests have been done that show non-abs will stop shorter than ABS systems with a skilled driver. 95% of drivers do not poses that skill hence the reason for ABS. Its is meant to assist in panic situations and allow car control in adverse conditions. For skilled drivers ABS will actually hinder their ability of complete control under any and all circumstances. That being said our jeep systems are basic an no where where near as effective for a skilled driver as say a BMW/Volvo/Merc/Subaru system.

Quick edit: AAA describes in good detail here: AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety - Resources
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Unread 12-17-2009, 08:20 PM   #24
comptiger5000
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To solve the liability problem, just notify your insurance company that your vehicle doesn't have working ABS. They may charge a little more, but you're covered for the mod.
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Unread 12-17-2009, 11:36 PM   #25
ronsaun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srad711 View Post
This is pretty much on point. But just to let everyone know ABS does NOT shorten braking distances period. ABS merely allows wheels not to lock and allows added control while braking. In a straight line this will usually increase stopping distances in snow/sand/gravel/dry (wet is usually the exception). As an engineer who has studied ABS systems for about 10yrs now I can tell you the most modern day ABS systems with EBD/brake poportioning/brake assist/fade compensation/automatic rotor drying, do help much more than the older systems. Many Many tests have been done that show non-abs will stop shorter than ABS systems with a skilled driver. 95% of drivers do not poses that skill hence the reason for ABS. Its is meant to assist in panic situations and allow car control in adverse conditions. For skilled drivers ABS will actually hinder their ability of complete control under any and all circumstances. That being said our jeep systems are basic an no where where near as effective for a skilled driver as say a BMW/Volvo/Merc/Subaru system.

Quick edit: AAA describes in good detail here: AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety - Resources
am i to understand that you would agree that to a skilled driver abs is more difficult to control and will not stop as quickly on questionable surfaces? just making sure that i grasped your point.
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Unread 12-17-2009, 11:41 PM   #26
ronsaun
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pulled the fuse on my abs today. i love it! i am now able to stop much quicker than before, and, i feel more confident when approaching stops on snow covered roads and parking lots. it is good to know that i probably wont slide out into cross traffic. no adverse mechanical effects so far except the brake and the abs trouble lights.
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Unread 12-17-2009, 11:50 PM   #27
ronsaun
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something i just read in a 4wheel offroad mag!

Not so on a dirt road!

Sand and gravel under the tires act like tiny ball bearings when you step on the brakes. As a result there will be very little friction/traction between tires and ground.
Therefore all four wheels want to lock up immediately.
ABS would keep them from doing so.
So you keep rolling and rolling, and rolling, and rolling. You might be rolling for too long and your stopping distance is going to be that of a container ship. Too long to be safe. You might even drive off a cliff.

Last edited by ronsaun; 12-18-2009 at 12:10 AM..
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Unread 12-18-2009, 12:07 AM   #28
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will i be able to do sick AWD burnouts if i pull mine?
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Unread 12-18-2009, 05:34 AM   #29
srad711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronsaun View Post
am i to understand that you would agree that to a skilled driver abs is more difficult to control and will not stop as quickly on questionable surfaces? just making sure that i grasped your point.
you are correct
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Unread 12-18-2009, 05:41 AM   #30
srad711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronsaun View Post
something i just read in a 4wheel offroad mag!

Not so on a dirt road!

Sand and gravel under the tires act like tiny ball bearings when you step on the brakes. As a result there will be very little friction/traction between tires and ground.
Therefore all four wheels want to lock up immediately.
ABS would keep them from doing so.
So you keep rolling and rolling, and rolling, and rolling. You might be rolling for too long and your stopping distance is going to be that of a container ship. Too long to be safe. You might even drive off a cliff.
Not true, if you lock the tires you will dig below the "ball bearing's" stoping quicker. Also you will push a large mound in front of your tires helping to stop much quicker. Problem with ABS is it doesnt know what surface it is on and continues to realease pressure not allowing the above to happen. This has been proven fact time and time again.
The new ABS systems in some off-road vehicles (SVT Raptor for example) have a seperate program for off-roading that allows much more lock-up and are set-up for maximum performance in dirt/gravel /sand conditions.
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