[calvin12]

they also decrease the surface friction of the brakes lowering the braking power of the system. I understand the theory, but unless you are doing exreme braking with excessive heat buildup they shouldnt do anything, or actauly degrade braking performance. Plus the slots are just a place for crud to get caught up if you go offroad. all things equal a slotted/drilled rotor should perform worse then a solid rotor until heat becomes an issue. then the slotted/drilled ones would, due to the greater surface area exposed to the air, cool faster.
Also if you were having warping issues I'd think its more likely due to badly torqued lugs rather then heat. to get that bad from heat you should have been having issues with brake fade.

[shel3702]

OK, I just called Powerslot and the man I spoke with pretty much knew what I was talking about right off the bat. According to him, the EBC pad wasn't my best choice of pads with their rotors; apparently they work in different ways.

I will have my nice Powerslot rotors "buffed" with a scotch-bright type of pad, which is apparently the second step of the resurfacing process done by reputable places in order to polish up the surface. He said that they shouldn't do the typical first step of truly resurfacing the rotors, but they could just go straight to the second step, which is to put the rotors on a lathe and put on the "scotch bright" type pad softly and with even pressure to remove the black stuff. I sure hope that works.

Second, I'll be going with the Hawk HPS pads that he originally recommended to me months ago when I researched all of this...I should've listened . Hopefully they won't squeel. When I asked him about Ceramics, he told me that while, yes, ceramic pads are low dust and very quiet, they act as an insulator rather than a radiator, which is not a great combination with the Powerslots. So there it is...I will with the Hawk HPS pads.

So I may never know if it was the go cadmium coating material that wore off the Powerslot rotors (as it should) that then had a bad reaction with the EBC pads, OR, if the EBC pads simply were a poor choice with this type of rotor because they work in different ways. In any case, hopefully someone doing a search of these forums in the future will hit upon this thread and learn before making a mistake like I did.

LESSON: make sure you choose a rotor and pad combination that will work together.

Tim

[241comp]

Just a note on the Hawk HPS pads... that is what I use on my Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 and I love them. Very good stopping power, don't fade fast, not too much dust and they just seem well made. Definitely recommended. And you can imagine that with 350+ HP, I spend a lot of time accelerating and decelerating in that car (it also weighs almost 4K pounds). I highly recommend these pads.

Regarding slots in rotors, they actually primarily help with braking by deglazing and cleaning the pads as you use them (as well as allowing gas to escape). Cross-drilling is more for heat purposes.

[shel3702]

Just for reference, I am going to copy-and-paste the email I sent, and the email I received back from EBC regarding their pads with my Powerslot rotors. Don't forget that the PowerSlot folks had their own account of what happened, which they explained during a phone call (shown earlier in the thread).

In the end I feel it is simply a matter of the pads not working well with the rotors; neither company is at fault, it's just that one doesn't work with the other. I suppose it's my fault

Here is my email to EBC after not receive adequate response:

Hello,

Please help me out. I've attached a picture of my new Powerslot rotors after minimal use with new EBC 7000 Series SUV pads. After just 1 or two miles, the rotors began turning black like in the picture; after 20 miles they were covered. This coating is very very thin, and hard. It won't come off with Brakleen either. Do you know what it is? Have you ever seen this or heard of this before?

No one seems to know what this is, even many experts in person and online.

I've attached two pictures. Please help me as I'm getting more and more frustrated with the EBC pads and the EBC Corporation. I have surpassed the 500 mile mark and I still have this stuff. I even tried to burn it off with some hard stops, but there was no change whatsoever.

It is looking like 1) I am going to have to resurface my BRAND NEW rotors, which I already paid a fortune for (yet costing me even MORE money), and 2) I am going to return these pads to EBC for a full refund.

There is virtually no change in this black "crayon-like," hard coating. I seriously doubt it is going to go away, no matter how long I wait. I followed your bedding-in procedures precisely, and I waited the 500 miles, and still no change.

I expect a full explanation to this email, either explaining what has happened to cause this black stuff, or at least what this black stuff is, and if you've ever seen it or heard of anyone with it before. As you can tell, I'm not very happy with EBC right now, mainly for the lack of a full response to my issue. I just want to know what's going on here.

Here is their response:

Hi There

Looking at the photos this is CERTAINLY not an element contained within our pads.

We have seen these markings before in early fitment of rotors with galvanic coatings and we believe Powerslot use Cadmium(we use Zinc) as their coating (Well it says so in their catalog)

You have two choices here.

1) Take off the rotors and take them to a metal coatings Company (who do zinc plating and galvanising) and ask them to acid dip the rotors to remove this cadmium. (If there are BEARING CONES in your rotor they MUST be removed before this operation as acid etching the bearings cones will take the finish off them and cause noisy wheel bearings and premature bearing failure)Removing and refitting bearings cones need to be done by a professional installer like Pep Boys service dept.

2) Send the rotors BACK to Powerslot and we will supply you a set of EBC rotors at Distributor cost to cover your expenses here and you can have these EBC rotors either zinc plated or totally UNPLATED.You MUST please specify if you want them UNCOATED when you order or you will get Zinc plated and gold coloured rotors from us.

Then refit the pads and repeat bedding procedure.

I genuinely dont think this is a pad fault and I do think that over time(1000 miles or so) the markings will all go away but as with all electroplating thickness of the plating is hard to control. Plating thickness is affected by temperature of the bath and time IN the bath. Someone goes on break and a rotor gets left in means the coating may be WAY thicker than normal and this smearing effect can be awful. We get it from time to time on our own coated rotors.

This is why we also use a pad surface coating called BRAKE IN which scrubs these coatings off fast. I dont know if the 7000 series EBC pads you purchased had this coating on them. It is red brown in colour and wears off after about 100 miles.We only started applying brake in early this year and you may have older stock.

Lots to think about

regards
Andy

Again, Powerslot contends that the EBC compound contains something called Aramid, which is a variation of Kevlar, and was causing a form of cementiting of my rotor. They stated that kind of compound/pad isn't meant for the PowerSlot rotors.

Hope this clarifies things a bit. I've been pulling my hair out trying to resolve this, and I'm close (JeepForum needs to have a "pulling my hair out" smiley). I found a place nearby that will "burnish" my rotors professionally with the special scotch-bright type pad. Then they'll replace pads with the Hawk HPS. Oh fun, more money$$$.

Tim

[Meerkat]

Great information.
I find it interesting that they recommend against ceramic pads due to their insulating qualities. Personally, I want my pads to insulate my caliper, piston and brake fluid from the heat being generated as kinetic energy is converted to thermal energy....

Here is some more food for thought for those wanting to upgrade their brakes:

DC definitely had the right idea when they designed the rotors on our Jeeps. I just figure the bean counters got in the way of their proper execution. First, a grey iron rotor is generally considered the best material for most road or track applications. However, if you make the entire rotor a single piece, as the metal of the braking surface (the disc) heats up and expands, the hub (or tophat) stays relatively cool, this means the outside circumference gets larger and larger while the center stays about the same. This causes the disc to actually distort into a cone shape, which will adversely affect brake performance. Properly executed, a grey iron disc mounted to an aluminum tophat don't suffer from this problem, as the disc is free to expand in a more linear fashion. This is what DC attempted to accomplish with their floating disc. However, I imagine that in a cost cutting maneuver, they ended up using inferior materials and suffered the results.

HTH

[knate24]

Originally Posted by calvin12

they also decrease the surface friction of the brakes lowering the braking power of the system. I understand the theory, but unless you are doing exreme braking with excessive heat buildup they shouldnt do anything, or actauly degrade braking performance. Plus the slots are just a place for crud to get caught up if you go offroad. all things equal a slotted/drilled rotor should perform worse then a solid rotor until heat becomes an issue. then the slotted/drilled ones would, due to the greater surface area exposed to the air, cool faster.
Also if you were having warping issues I'd think its more likely due to badly torqued lugs rather then heat. to get that bad from heat you should have been having issues with brake fade.

This issue has been thoroughly discussed throughout this board and can be found using the Search. I respect ArloGuthroJeep's simple response, after it's all said and done, it 's all about the gas. Read on for more. Surface friction only decreases as a result of the cooler temperature of the rotors. The heated air vaporizing in the channel has time to escape, cooling the metal. Friction is a force, the resultant of a temperature and surface contact area interaction.

The warping issues cannot be truly understood until you one one of the affected Jeeps. Let's hear it for the upgrade!

[shel3702]

Very interesting, I'd always wondered what "floating discs" were.

Here is the link that the Powerslot engineer sent me regarding the 3M "scotch bright" type of pad that should be used to clean the black stuff off my rotors: http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...er/output_html

My thanks to Ken at Powerslot for his taking the time to educate me over the past few months about brakes, as well as his patience. My thanks to EBC for dealing with my tantrum and educating me about their pads. My thanks also to you folks here on JeepForum who helped educate me and bring up new ideas.

I think we've put this to bed.

Tim

[shel3702]

Originally Posted by wvd

Great information.
I find it interesting that they recommend against ceramic pads due to their insulating qualities. Personally, I want my pads to insulate my caliper, piston and brake fluid from the heat being generated as kinetic energy is converted to thermal energy....

Warren, if I recall correctly from my conversation with Powerslot, they want the energy to be released with the dust...I suppose that's mechanical??? energy. Their Hawk pads are made of a "ferrile(sp?) carbon" compound, and they do dust. I'd rather dust my wheels and finally put this issue to rest than possibly have issues with ceramic pads similar to the one I'm having now with organic pads.

knate24, thanks for the support, I need it.

Tim

[knate24]

This is how I've started.

[shel3702]

Originally Posted by wvd

For folks that want to improve the braking performance of their Jeeps, the process is relatively inexpensive. Simply replace the fabric reinforced brake lines with stainless steel braid protected flexible hoses of extruded Teflon, insert titanium buttons in the brake caliper piston, and use ceramic pads. Further, use at least a 550 degree non-silicone brake fluid and make sure that your brakes are bled properly.

HTH

Warren, thanks for this. Do you know if WJs already have stainless lines stock? It sure looks like the lines on mine are in fact solid stainless steel tubes, but I may be wrong. Does anyone know?

I figure I can buy the Goodridge G-Stop Brakeline kit along with the Hawk pads, but if my Jeep already has this...

EDIT: Scratch that, Warren, I just noticed that I have stainless tubes up by the master cylinder, but rubber tubes down below. As long as I'm spending hoards of money fixing my organic pad issue, I might as well go all the way now.
Tim