YJ Computer/ Engine Swap Help - Page 3 - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > Models > Jeep Wrangler Forums > YJ Wrangler Technical Forum > YJ Computer/ Engine Swap Help

Savvy Aluminum Gas Tank SkidFS: Jeep Fog Light LED Bulbs! Several Brightness Options! Savvy/Currie Aluminum Control Arms

Reply
Unread 08-20-2013, 08:01 AM   #31
Que89YJ
Web Wheeler
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 14,809
So the relay jumper is to the starter relay in the PDC and you are pushing it and it is turning the starter correct?

Que89YJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-20-2013, 10:12 PM   #32
fourwheelnguy
Registered User
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: , OH
Posts: 22
Sorry for the delayed response...Work keeps getting in the way

laybackman: I've contemplated the fuel injectors too. The injectors have been noided, ohmed, and leak tested and seem to pass. The only thing that can/ hasn't been seen is when are they firing and how well are they spraying?! But I wonder how/ could pressing the button affect this?

Que89YJ: The push button is two wires...one wire is hooked from one prong of the push button to the + terminal of the battery, the second wire is ran from the second prong of the push button igntion to the starter; directly hooked up to the same location that the 'relay' looking device is hooked up to. I haven nothing ran to any fuse box, computer etc. It really is a barbaric setup; you just turn the key on and press the button and it starts???!!!! But, yes it turns the starter when I press the button, but it isn't hooked to any type of relay.
fourwheelnguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2013, 04:05 AM   #33
Que89YJ
Web Wheeler
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 14,809
There it's no way that should make a difference then. I know what you are saying but if the starter turns at the same rate with the key and with the relay it's the same electrically.
Que89YJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2013, 06:29 AM   #34
laybackman
Bikini Bridge Inspector
 
laybackman's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 6,084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Que89YJ View Post
There it's no way that should make a difference then. I know what you are saying but if the starter turns at the same rate with the key and with the relay it's the same electrically.
The only thing the remote starter does is bypass the brown 14 AWG wire that leaves the starter relay, correct?
__________________
Chicks dig me.....Fish fear me

Getting older, I have developed some special skills. I have the ability to cough, sneeze, fart and pee at the same time.

"If we cannot afford to take care of Veterans, then we should stop making them."
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
laybackman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2013, 11:53 AM   #35
Que89YJ
Web Wheeler
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 14,809
If it is wired the way he said then that is the only thing I can think of. 4wheelnguy when you start it either way the starter is turning over at the same speed? There has to be something else going on. The relay is a control line not even power to the starter. I know it's a fresh motor but are the ignition and fuel system is the original? Are you getting any fault codes other then the 12,33,55?
Que89YJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2013, 11:55 AM   #36
Que89YJ
Web Wheeler
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 14,809
I think you have a problem going on with fuel pressure. Can you run a check to see if your fuel pressure is correct and it isnt bleeding down. You can get the guage on the tool loan program from any of the big parts stores.
Que89YJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2013, 08:33 PM   #37
fourwheelnguy
Registered User
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: , OH
Posts: 22
laybackman - I'm not certain exactly what the push botton starter does bypass. All that I know I'm bypassing is the little relay looking thing that is down on the starter. Howscome the push button will not work when it is directly hooked up to one of the larger two terminals on the starter, but does work when you hook it up to the same prong the brown wire is? I believe it is a brown wire, kind of hard to tell it looks orangeish to me, but was probably brown when new. When you say starter relay, you're talking about down by the starter, and not up by the fuse box or anything, correct?

Que89YJ - I don't notice any difference in starter speeds based on which method you use to start it. It's not like one way seems to be spinning noticably faster than another, or atleast I haven't noticed it yet. The ignition, fuel pump, fuel filter and pressure regulator are all new. As far as ignition, new plugs, several caps, buttons etc etc. I had purchased a new distributor, but it ended up being remanned incorrectly and never did work. Timing is dead on according to the mechanic, he used the timing light and the computer. The last code that was thrown was an O2 sensor and that was when I had the Jeep for a short time between the two different shops, and I replaced the O2 sensor. Fuel pressure has been checked and is where it is supposed to be, it does not leak off any more than normal. He would leave the guage on the rail all weekend, when he returned it would have leaked down like normal, but would still have pressure. We suspected that we maybe had an injector that was leaking as the backfire was through the exhaust and it sometimes seemed flooded. He pulled the injectors, left them attached to the rail, primed the system with the pressure guage on there to ensure the rail had pressure, put cardboard under each injector and let them set. He did this for three days priming the system each day and never had a trace of fuel out of any injector. He noided them, and ohmed them and all checked OK.

Sorry for the late response, work keeps getting in the way I did go out about half hour ago and try to start the Jeep. The Jeep had not been started since Sunday about noon. I went out and hit the key twich with now luck...left the key on and hit the push button and it took off, sounded a little rough, but it was running fine. Shut it off and hit the push button again and ran smooth as could be???? I'm tickeled pink it started, don't get me wrong, just confused as to what's going on.
fourwheelnguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2013, 08:53 PM   #38
laybackman
Bikini Bridge Inspector
 
laybackman's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 6,084
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourwheelnguy View Post
laybackman - I'm not certain exactly what the push botton starter does bypass. All that I know I'm bypassing is the little relay looking thing that is down on the starter. Howscome the push button will not work when it is directly hooked up to one of the larger two terminals on the starter, but does work when you hook it up to the same prong the brown wire is? I believe it is a brown wire, kind of hard to tell it looks orangeish to me, but was probably brown when new. When you say starter relay, you're talking about down by the starter, and not up by the fuse box or anything, correct?

Que89YJ - I don't notice any difference in starter speeds based on which method you use to start it. It's not like one way seems to be spinning noticably faster than another, or atleast I haven't noticed it yet. The ignition, fuel pump, fuel filter and pressure regulator are all new. As far as ignition, new plugs, several caps, buttons etc etc. I had purchased a new distributor, but it ended up being remanned incorrectly and never did work. Timing is dead on according to the mechanic, he used the timing light and the computer. The last code that was thrown was an O2 sensor and that was when I had the Jeep for a short time between the two different shops, and I replaced the O2 sensor. Fuel pressure has been checked and is where it is supposed to be, it does not leak off any more than normal. He would leave the guage on the rail all weekend, when he returned it would have leaked down like normal, but would still have pressure. We suspected that we maybe had an injector that was leaking as the backfire was through the exhaust and it sometimes seemed flooded. He pulled the injectors, left them attached to the rail, primed the system with the pressure guage on there to ensure the rail had pressure, put cardboard under each injector and let them set. He did this for three days priming the system each day and never had a trace of fuel out of any injector. He noided them, and ohmed them and all checked OK.

Sorry for the late response, work keeps getting in the way I did go out about half hour ago and try to start the Jeep. The Jeep had not been started since Sunday about noon. I went out and hit the key twich with now luck...left the key on and hit the push button and it took off, sounded a little rough, but it was running fine. Shut it off and hit the push button again and ran smooth as could be???? I'm tickeled pink it started, don't get me wrong, just confused as to what's going on.
The remote starter replaces the brown wire essentially. That is why I thought that you should check for continuity of the brown wire from the relay socket (in the PDC) to the solenoid terminal with a multi-meter checking for continuity. Even something basic like the crimps on the wire terminals are good.
__________________
Chicks dig me.....Fish fear me

Getting older, I have developed some special skills. I have the ability to cough, sneeze, fart and pee at the same time.

"If we cannot afford to take care of Veterans, then we should stop making them."
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
laybackman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-22-2013, 05:12 AM   #39
fourwheelnguy
Registered User
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: , OH
Posts: 22
I agree layback. I'm hoping I will have a couple spare minutes tonight to inspect that wire. I completely understand what it is you're saying, but I'm still confused as to why... if that wire is bad what does it have to do with my Jeep starting or not? I am asking because I simply don't know, not a challenge to anybody's knowledge. I could see if sometimes the starter didn't engage but it seems to every time.
fourwheelnguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-22-2013, 06:17 AM   #40
laybackman
Bikini Bridge Inspector
 
laybackman's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 6,084
Now, I'm getting confused also. I just went back over this thread and in reply #27 you stated that the starter ALWAYS turns the engine over but sometimes it only fires up using the remote starter. DO you actually see the engine turn or do you just hear the starter turning? Does it turn faster when the engine fails to fire and run?

If this starter ALWAYS engages the flywheel AND it ALWAYS turns the engine over but SOMETIMES it will only START and RUN when a remote starter is used to do so in addition to using the ignition it has to be the brown wire going from the starter relay to the starter.

How about you try to get this engine to NOT fire up. Then add a wire from the battery to the starter where the brown wire is attached. Then hit the key again to see if it fires and runs. If it does you have to trace that brown wire back from the starter to the relay socket to see what is wrong.

Also swap that starter relay in your PDC with another one in the PDC like the horn relay.

Here is the layout of my 1995 YJ PDC.....the wire color(s) may not be the same.

The pin numbers on each relay in this example are sequential in nature. That makes it easy to read, but in reality they are numbered the same way...85, 86 30 and 87, and 87a which is used sometimes.



__________________
Chicks dig me.....Fish fear me

Getting older, I have developed some special skills. I have the ability to cough, sneeze, fart and pee at the same time.

"If we cannot afford to take care of Veterans, then we should stop making them."
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
laybackman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-22-2013, 06:33 AM   #41
Que89YJ
Web Wheeler
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 14,809
Ok so the mechanic checked the pressure bleed down. What was rail pressure at when starting? It is common to have too high of fuel pressure because the return is pinched ot the fuel lines are flipped on the fuel rail. If it is a start thing I would also take a look at the tstat temp sensor to see if it is screwed up. The other thing I would look at is the voltage on the coil. Make a short jumper to the coil and see if it starts better. I would also look at the wires under the fuse block and check all their integrity. Maybe you are having an issue because of a bad connection, corrostion, or a short. It makes no sense that the starter relay should make any difference in the start if the rate is the same unless the wiring is somehow compromised.
Que89YJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-22-2013, 07:05 AM   #42
laybackman
Bikini Bridge Inspector
 
laybackman's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 6,084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Que89YJ View Post
Ok so the mechanic checked the pressure bleed down. What was rail pressure at when starting? It is common to have too high of fuel pressure because the return is pinched ot the fuel lines are flipped on the fuel rail. If it is a start thing I would also take a look at the tstat temp sensor to see if it is screwed up. The other thing I would look at is the voltage on the coil. Make a short jumper to the coil and see if it starts better. I would also look at the wires under the fuse block and check all their integrity. Maybe you are having an issue because of a bad connection, corrostion, or a short. It makes no sense that the starter relay should make any difference in the start if the rate is the same unless the wiring is somehow compromised.
That is my thinking concerning the remote start device. How does it 'fix' the problem. If the wire it bypasses was 'pinched', and even though it does not look broken from the exterior it is partially broken inside the insulation and that causes the fits of the start-no-start condition. That would be one good reason why the remote starter works. It bypasses that brown wire. OR....is corrosion is the issue under the PDC?

That is why I suggested a jumper wire in my last post. IF the problem goes away it has to be that brown wire or it connections.
__________________
Chicks dig me.....Fish fear me

Getting older, I have developed some special skills. I have the ability to cough, sneeze, fart and pee at the same time.

"If we cannot afford to take care of Veterans, then we should stop making them."
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
laybackman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-22-2013, 08:36 PM   #43
fourwheelnguy
Registered User
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: , OH
Posts: 22
OK, it looks like I've got some testing to do!!! Not a chance of getting off early today either, but I'm hoping I'll have a good weekend with some spare time.

It seems like we keep going back to the brown wire, and as I'm reading your posts layback I think I'm basically already doing what you're saying...when the motor doesn't start by using the key, I am essentially taking a wire from the + battery side and touching it to the brown wire and starter... I'm just going the long way and have a button that connects the continuity.

Maybe this is something I should know, but what does that brown wire have to do with actually letting the motor start and run? Maybe I shouldn't care, but I'm just a little confused or don't understand.

Que - I can't state an exact starting pressure that was obtained at start up as I wasn't with him when he was doing it (I need to get mine back from my uncle-in-law...think I made that term up) but I know he said it was within the tolerances. We did look at the possibility of the fuel lines being reversed, but the line connection into the fuel rail are actually two different sizes, does that sound correct?

Anyways, bottom line is I think I first need to make some time and trace our brown wire and hope to see something pinched off, corroded etc etc on it and maybe that will be our million dollar cure...I sure hope so and very much appreciate your interest and willingness to help!!!
fourwheelnguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-22-2013, 09:10 PM   #44
laybackman
Bikini Bridge Inspector
 
laybackman's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 6,084
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourwheelnguy View Post
OK, it looks like I've got some testing to do!!! Not a chance of getting off early today either, but I'm hoping I'll have a good weekend with some spare time.

It seems like we keep going back to the brown wire, and as I'm reading your posts layback I think I'm basically already doing what you're saying...when the motor doesn't start by using the key, I am essentially taking a wire from the + battery side and touching it to the brown wire and starter... I'm just going the long way and have a button that connects the continuity.

Maybe this is something I should know, but what does that brown wire have to do with actually letting the motor start and run? Maybe I shouldn't care, but I'm just a little confused or don't understand.

Que - I can't state an exact starting pressure that was obtained at start up as I wasn't with him when he was doing it (I need to get mine back from my uncle-in-law...think I made that term up) but I know he said it was within the tolerances. We did look at the possibility of the fuel lines being reversed, but the line connection into the fuel rail are actually two different sizes, does that sound correct?

Anyways, bottom line is I think I first need to make some time and trace our brown wire and hope to see something pinched off, corroded etc etc on it and maybe that will be our million dollar cure...I sure hope so and very much appreciate your interest and willingness to help!!!
If you look at the pdf I posted the brown wire comes from the PDC where the starter relay is located. When the key is turned the starter relay closes allowing voltage to pass through the relay from the 12AWG red wire to the 14AWG brown we have talked about.

Note the 4 AWG wire from the battery? The power it provides can't 'get' to the starter until the voltage in the brown wire energizes the starter solenoid which allows the battery voltage to turn the starter AND shoot the starter drive forward to engage the flywheel. Let the key go and that circuit is broken. Check out the PDF again and visualize that process.

If you put 12 volts to the brown wire terminal from that fat red wire with the key in the ON position the engine will start....just like using the remote starter but that can be done with a screwdriver!
__________________
Chicks dig me.....Fish fear me

Getting older, I have developed some special skills. I have the ability to cough, sneeze, fart and pee at the same time.

"If we cannot afford to take care of Veterans, then we should stop making them."
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
laybackman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-22-2013, 10:02 PM   #45
Que89YJ
Web Wheeler
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 14,809
The brown is a control to the starter. The starter turns over the same rate with the key and the jumper.I am just not seeing how the jumper is doing anything. The wire fires nothing else.
Que89YJ is offline   Reply With Quote




Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.