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Unread 05-07-2013, 10:33 PM   #46
JohnnyZJ
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There were no good arguements Anticanman

Troll or whatever I dont care. I will report back in a few months see how its still riding.

Not that you guys care obviously.

Fwiw shackles are at 50 ft lbs.

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Unread 05-07-2013, 11:05 PM   #47
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If I hadn't already gone another route I would put rough country springs on my jeep. I'd do the same prep that I do with every leaf pack and I bet I could make them ride very smooth. There's no magic to any other spring. I have a BDS set that rides like the axles are welded to the frame. Wont do BDS again. I used to use procomps. Before the latest RC offering, the PCs were the rough-ride-scapegoat. Taking a leaf pack out of the box and bolting it on is the dumbest thing you can do to your jeep. Anyone who does this deserves a crappy ride. BDS was just the latests and greatest. What those who claimed they were the best were actually doing was comparing the fresh install to a seized and unmaintained original suspension. They had long forgotten what a regular ride was supposed to feel like. With every new spring on the market this phenomena happens. Before BDS it was RE. Springs are springs, prep and install correctly and it should ride nicely, if not you've done something wrong.
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Unread 05-07-2013, 11:51 PM   #48
Anticanman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fratis View Post
If I hadn't already gone another route I would put rough country springs on my jeep. I'd do the same prep that I do with every leaf pack and I bet I could make them ride very smooth. There's no magic to any other spring. I have a BDS set that rides like the axles are welded to the frame. Wont do BDS again. I used to use procomps. Before the latest RC offering, the PCs were the rough-ride-scapegoat. Taking a leaf pack out of the box and bolting it on is the dumbest thing you can do to your jeep. Anyone who does this deserves a crappy ride. BDS was just the latests and greatest. What those who claimed they were the best were actually doing was comparing the fresh install to a seized and unmaintained original suspension. They had long forgotten what a regular ride was supposed to feel like. With every new spring on the market this phenomena happens. Before BDS it was RE. Springs are springs, prep and install correctly and it should ride nicely, if not you've done something wrong.

Think you answered your own question.
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Unread 05-08-2013, 04:21 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anticanman View Post
Think you answered your own question.
Was there one question in my post? If you are going to play semantics then what question exactly are you referring to? Anyone can be a biased smartass.

I know you are a BDS fanboy as we have all read countless posts of yours to the fact but my point was still made. They are all pretty much the same and can either ride like crap or ride nicely due to install. Although the BDS set was too stiff and remains seemingly counter to my point, i still think with more prep they could work well. due to lack of time they were pulled to potentially be reworked at a later time. i wont do BDS as i dont see a need to. The product didnt "wow" me as so many, new to jeep suspension building, suggested.
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Unread 05-08-2013, 06:27 AM   #50
Ripper3494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fratis View Post
If I hadn't already gone another route I would put rough country springs on my jeep. I'd do the same prep that I do with every leaf pack and I bet I could make them ride very smooth. There's no magic to any other spring. I have a BDS set that rides like the axles are welded to the frame. Wont do BDS again. I used to use procomps. Before the latest RC offering, the PCs were the rough-ride-scapegoat. Taking a leaf pack out of the box and bolting it on is the dumbest thing you can do to your jeep. Anyone who does this deserves a crappy ride. BDS was just the latests and greatest. What those who claimed they were the best were actually doing was comparing the fresh install to a seized and unmaintained original suspension. They had long forgotten what a regular ride was supposed to feel like. With every new spring on the market this phenomena happens. Before BDS it was RE. Springs are springs, prep and install correctly and it should ride nicely, if not you've done something wrong.
just out of curiosity what is proper prep to installing a leaf spring. i've always pulled em out of the box, greased and installed bushings and slapped em on with out a second thought... i'd like to know if there is something else i should be doing.
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build thread:
[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/94-yj-6-0-build-spud-1218315/[/url]
1994 yj stretched, locked and loaded - 6.0l vortec lq4, 4l60e, np231, Dana 44s 37" interco trxus m/t, 3.5" bds front leafs, double triangulated 4 link rear on xj front coils.
1997 ZJ limited - BONE stock
2003 tj - 4in skyjacker, 33" mickey thompsons
my on board alternator/welder write up
[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/alternator-welder-write-up-1301614/[/url]
my tj 1/2 doors on a yj write up
[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/tj-uppers-yj-half-doors-hard-top-installation-1417686/[/url]
RC vs BDS
[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/rough-country-vs-bds-1461555/[/url]
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Unread 05-08-2013, 06:43 AM   #51
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the thinking that "they are pretty much the same" is what keeps RC in business. personally, after 5 years with BDS and they still maintain the advertised height on all four springs and after reading many many posts of problems with rough country I still believe you get what you pay for.
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Unread 05-08-2013, 07:07 AM   #52
rodgers3
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i would also like to know this special step in the install process?
and have fun with rc.
ripper broke his rc on a curb.
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Unread 05-08-2013, 07:14 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgers3 View Post
ripper broke his rc on a curb.
indeed i did lol
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build thread:
[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/94-yj-6-0-build-spud-1218315/[/url]
1994 yj stretched, locked and loaded - 6.0l vortec lq4, 4l60e, np231, Dana 44s 37" interco trxus m/t, 3.5" bds front leafs, double triangulated 4 link rear on xj front coils.
1997 ZJ limited - BONE stock
2003 tj - 4in skyjacker, 33" mickey thompsons
my on board alternator/welder write up
[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/alternator-welder-write-up-1301614/[/url]
my tj 1/2 doors on a yj write up
[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/tj-uppers-yj-half-doors-hard-top-installation-1417686/[/url]
RC vs BDS
[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/rough-country-vs-bds-1461555/[/url]
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Unread 05-08-2013, 07:18 AM   #54
grandboost98
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Ive read a lot of fratis's posts, as well as others, in the past about working leaf springs and some things I remember were no full mil wraps, grinding down the edges of each spring, full length teflon pads, removing/cutting/replace the hendrix clamp, etc. Ive done some of these and have noticed a big difference in my ride and flex. Ill agree with him in that my BDS lift, out of the box, was very stiff and didnt flex all that well. Now it has smoothed out and flexes a lot more. I wouldnt say Im unhappy with BDS, just that they need a little work before going in to get the most out of them
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Unread 05-08-2013, 07:30 AM   #55
Anticanman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fratis View Post
Was there one question in my post? If you are going to play semantics then what question exactly are you referring to? Anyone can be a biased smartass.

I know you are a BDS fanboy as we have all read countless posts of yours to the fact but my point was still made. They are all pretty much the same and can either ride like crap or ride nicely due to install. Although the BDS set was too stiff and remains seemingly counter to my point, i still think with more prep they could work well. due to lack of time they were pulled to potentially be reworked at a later time. i wont do BDS as i dont see a need to. The product didnt "wow" me as so many, new to jeep suspension building, suggested.
The question was who was at fault for your springs riding so badly. You bashed a product only to blame yourself in the end. I think your bias is you like to puff your chest up and see what you get away with by slinging crap day in and day out. If people actually took your posts start to finish they would see you have a tendency to contradict yourself more times than you would like to admit.

On the subject of all springs being equal and the difference of an old saggy stock suspension vs a new set of springs riding better is crap too. There are countless threads (or just individual's posts) of people who went from stock to rough country and swapped again to another manufacturer like BDS and were happiest with the end result. That's a side by side comparison with stock vs RC and then unhappy with RC and went to BDS or Old Man Emu or even Rubicon Express. Those are facts.
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Unread 05-08-2013, 08:42 AM   #56
JohnnyZJ
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maybe i'll be one of those fellas in a few months.

maybe i won't.

i also know one thing; i don't take opinions to heart from people that can't turn a wrench, have only installed one suspension etc. (not pointing fingers!@) i've run almost everything from OME, to RE, to RC, Procomp, to stock. the biggest difference i've ever seen in ride difference had NOTHING to do with the springs. it was all about Track bars, shackles, and shocks, tire pressure and sway bars. oh and running less than a 4" lift.
spring company is the last component.

if you take care of 4/5 things, you can get away with a 'cheaper' spring. the 2.5" spring (actually more like 3") also helps ride quality methinks.

i've learnt this first hand; didn't read it on a web forum.

is RC cheap? hell ya. is it lower quality? hell ya. is it a great bang for the buck based on a guy that just wants added lift to run bigger tires and isn't gonna hit moab with it? i think it deserves a look.
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Unread 05-08-2013, 11:27 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fratis View Post
If I hadn't already gone another route I would put rough country springs on my jeep. I'd do the same prep that I do with every leaf pack and I bet I could make them ride very smooth. There's no magic to any other spring.
I don't think it's the Rough Country springs that make it ride so crappy, I believe it's the shocks. I'd venture to say that the spring rate between RC springs and OME springs aren't too wildly different. But the difference in shock stiffness is HUGE! The RC shocks feel like a solid metal rod compared to OME.

Maybe if you put some nice shocks along with RC springs you could get a decent ride. The problem with RC springs is they start sagging from day 1. When I took my 1.5 year old 4" RC springs off and replaced them with 2.5" OME springs, the rear stayed about the same height and it actually lifted the front. The RC were also more rusty than my 24 year old frame.

If anyone wants a rough country lift, I'd sell mine, but I'd almost feel bad even giving them away its so crappy.
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Unread 05-08-2013, 12:14 PM   #58
Ripper3494
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im a fan of the full military wrap that bds has too. makes busted springs far less likely
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build thread:
[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/94-yj-6-0-build-spud-1218315/[/url]
1994 yj stretched, locked and loaded - 6.0l vortec lq4, 4l60e, np231, Dana 44s 37" interco trxus m/t, 3.5" bds front leafs, double triangulated 4 link rear on xj front coils.
1997 ZJ limited - BONE stock
2003 tj - 4in skyjacker, 33" mickey thompsons
my on board alternator/welder write up
[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/alternator-welder-write-up-1301614/[/url]
my tj 1/2 doors on a yj write up
[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/tj-uppers-yj-half-doors-hard-top-installation-1417686/[/url]
RC vs BDS
[url]http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/rough-country-vs-bds-1461555/[/url]
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Unread 05-08-2013, 01:36 PM   #59
remmons
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadyrob View Post
the thinking that "they are pretty much the same" is what keeps RC in business. personally, after 5 years with BDS and they still maintain the advertised height on all four springs and after reading many many posts of problems with rough country I still believe you get what you pay for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grandboost98 View Post
Ive read a lot of fratis's posts, as well as others, in the past about working leaf springs and some things I remember were no full mil wraps, grinding down the edges of each spring, full length teflon pads, removing/cutting/replace the hendrix clamp, etc. Ive done some of these and have noticed a big difference in my ride and flex. Ill agree with him in that my BDS lift, out of the box, was very stiff and didnt flex all that well. Now it has smoothed out and flexes a lot more. I wouldnt say Im unhappy with BDS, just that they need a little work before going in to get the most out of them
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anticanman View Post
The question was who was at fault for your springs riding so badly. You bashed a product only to blame yourself in the end. I think your bias is you like to puff your chest up and see what you get away with by slinging crap day in and day out. If people actually took your posts start to finish they would see you have a tendency to contradict yourself more times than you would like to admit.

On the subject of all springs being equal and the difference of an old saggy stock suspension vs a new set of springs riding better is crap too. There are countless threads (or just individual's posts) of people who went from stock to rough country and swapped again to another manufacturer like BDS and were happiest with the end result. That's a side by side comparison with stock vs RC and then unhappy with RC and went to BDS or Old Man Emu or even Rubicon Express. Those are facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho_Chad View Post
I don't think it's the Rough Country springs that make it ride so crappy, I believe it's the shocks. I'd venture to say that the spring rate between RC springs and OME springs aren't too wildly different. But the difference in shock stiffness is HUGE! The RC shocks feel like a solid metal rod compared to OME.

Maybe if you put some nice shocks along with RC springs you could get a decent ride. The problem with RC springs is they start sagging from day 1. When I took my 1.5 year old 4" RC springs off and replaced them with 2.5" OME springs, the rear stayed about the same height and it actually lifted the front. The RC were also more rusty than my 24 year old frame.

If anyone wants a rough country lift, I'd sell mine, but I'd almost feel bad even giving them away its so crappy.
This is just my input, but I believe that I can speak for everyone here.

ALL springs will sag over time. The rate of sag all depends on the grade of steel used in the springs. Remember, not all springs are created equal, so you will have different spring rates, amount of sag, and amount of support. If you build your jeep up with accessories like bumpers, winches, racks, roll cages, and so forth, these will also play into the amount of sag that your springs will encounter due to the added weight that has been installed on your rig.

Freshly installed springs can, and will have a noticeably different height than the advertised height. This is due to that the springs haven't "settled" yet, and thus will make your rig sit higher. I have yet to see anyone post their pre- and post- lift heights at various times. For example, a measure taken before lift install, after lift install, one month down the road, six months down the road, and one year down the road. Having consistent measurements from the same reference points at the same location, (like a driveway, a garage, etc) is a plus.

While I am no expert, I have installed my fair share of new lift kits, used lift kits, add-a-leaf, and bastard packs in my life. And each time after a lift I have taken measurements. After a time I have measured my Jeep's ride height. When I last installed my bastard packs I had gained almost four inches of lift. I had to remove leaves until I had acheived a desired two inches of lift. I did not have a SYE or a CV driveshaft, so I had to keep my lift at a moderate to allow me to run my 31-10.50LT15's, all with out creating driveline vibration. BTW, I am running an AW4 Auto trans. as well. Long story short, my 2" lift is now at about 1.5", and I'm sure that this is due to settling and sag.

I post my two-cents worth to hopefully help others in this field. Not all lift kits are created equal, so not all lift kits will perform equally.
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Unread 05-10-2013, 12:51 PM   #60
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a lot of good info and perspectives here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anticanman View Post
The question was who was at fault for your springs riding so badly.
Again i never asked that question. im sorry that the point of the post escaped you.

Ive been doing this for 33yrs and have used all manner and brand of leaf springs. ill post some strong opinions from time to time to get people thinking and debating. This encourages people to be more criticle of the build choices they make rather then simply following the latest trend like sheep. Since i posted there have been a lot of good posts on this subject.

roadyrob; Totally agree you definitely get what you pay for. Some springs are naturally going to fit peoples parameters better then others. Ive never been concerned about lift height. ive always liked a spring to sag and always noticed that they work better that way. I have a 2.5" set that is almost flat and id say they are just right. I will always cut before lifting anyways.

johnnyzj; Agree 100%.

Idaho; The shocks are a different debate although i would absolutely agree RC shocks as well as any "lift kit" shock, will not be helping in the least. i was just debating springs themselves. I never use lift kit shocks and anyone who wants a working suspension should use a middle grade and above unit made by a company who makes shocks exclusively. Ill go so far as to say if you want a suspension that rides nice and flexes well you need to redesign how the shocks are mounted as well.

ripper; ive tested a fair amount of military wrap and semi wrap springs and for my own i cut them off. they grind and limit flex way too much for me. I do believe they have a good purpose, however. Hold on i might sound like I'm contradicting myself again but there is a point. This is where the application of the jeep becomes the guiding principle for the build rather then strictly performance. If one were to build an expeditionary jeep designed to travel deep into uninhabited places with no support, one that will never see a trailer, and might travel solo, then a military wrap spring would be a good choice. Durability would become more important then performance.
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