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Unread 02-19-2013, 10:11 AM   #1
0verkillYJ
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Rear SOA Springs

So sorry for the long post, but I am looking for an answer from someone who has experience with this and knows the details.

I am SOA +1.5" from full length Rubicon add a leafs I had a spring shop add to all of my stock leaf springs. They flex and ride awesome. Problem is the traction bar I put in the rear to prevent axle wrap from abusive off roading limits the flex in the rear. Not a ton, but I obviously want every bit I can get.

So if I pull that traction bar, and continue to beat the crap out of it like I do now, are my springs going to wrap? I really want to pull it and also cut the traction bar mount point off of my rear axle tube. I use 4 Low about 3/4 of the time I am on the trails, and am a fan of the skinny pedal.

Just to be clear I have 2 full length leafs, the one original, and then the added leaf. They are made for SOA applications, and from the research I've done similar to "bastard packs" I have hear of people running without traction bars.

Also, if these will wrap, what would I have to do to run without a traction bar, and keep about the same height I am now?

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Unread 02-19-2013, 10:29 AM   #2
dillonjm
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Will the axle wrap, Yes. Will it matter, maybe, maybe not.

There is axle wrap inherent in any leaf sprung suspension, whether you care to worry about it is another thing entirely. Not sure what type design anti-wrap bar you are using so I'm not sure if I'd worry about it or not.

You could always put in some lockers and stop worrying about flex, my 2 cents.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 10:33 AM   #3
0verkillYJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonjm View Post
Will the axle wrap, Yes. Will it matter, maybe, maybe not.

There is axle wrap inherent in any leaf sprung suspension, whether you care to worry about it is another thing entirely. Not sure what type design anti-wrap bar you are using so I'm not sure if I'd worry about it or not.

You could always put in some lockers and stop worrying about flex, my 2 cents.
LOL, yeah I got a locked front and posi rear. I thought certain vehicles come from the factory with springs on top and do not have the wrap problem since they were designed for it. Also, my traction bar has a heim joint at the end of it so it does let it rotate quite a bit already, I just want more.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 05:21 PM   #4
zman
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If you do any hard core wheeling you may have problems> I have been there done that and I had to live with a traction bar and limited rear flex, I also had the all powerful 2.5L in my Jeep. In my case my traction bar broke due to to thin material. I continued to drive it and had so much axel wrap that my rear DS broke due to the axel wrap. Now I did have 4.88's, a Tera Lo kit and 35" tires. It appears you have 31" tires so you will probably be fine, just take it easy on the skinny pedal when you get into rocks or hills. If you get larger tires I would definately put the bar back in.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 05:58 PM   #5
kloppk
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I ran my YJ for about a year without an antiwrap bar with 33" tires.
Did notice I could hear the rear axle wrap as the pinion u-joint would start to bind up when under load. Made a distinct sound.
Finally while climbing a ledge the axle wrapped bad enough and it destroyed the Tom Woods CV shaft.

Learned my lesson and added an antiwrap bar. Yes it limited the flex a bit but I could hammer it on obstables and not have an issue with wrap.
IMOP I'd keep your bar installed.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 07:32 PM   #6
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Yes, it will wrap, guaranteed. No, thats not good. Yes, crap will break.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 07:49 PM   #7
0verkillYJ
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Well that's not what I wanted to hear. I made the bar using schedule 80 so its not going to break. That good since it seems I won't be taking it out.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 07:50 PM   #8
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dillonjm has got a point. you can definitly go without an antiwrap bar. i did for quite some time. to be honest i havent been impressed with any bar setup yet that ive seen. the trick to it is not caring what your springs look like and the effect it has. people constantly whine about how they have lost lift etc etc sag this sag that. i say who the heck cares. my springs are tweaked and sagged and they work much better that way. after awhile you will find that the springs will bend in an "s" shape. this does nothing inherently bad for the springs themselves. my 2.5" springs are almost flat with a bit of "s". this allows them to droop a lot. what you want to be concerned about is how this effects the pinion input angle and how to minimize developing a poor setup. as your springs settle into an "s" shape it will cause your pinion input to point higher then it was originally set. im referring to a static situation and not referring to what happens while under acceleration. if you set your pinion angle with your jeep empty and over time the springs sag, then get a bit of "s" shape, and then you load it down for a trip to hammer it on hard trails you could have problems. its a cumulative thing. the best way to deal with this without a wrap bar is to minimize the the effects the "s" shape will have combined with the wrap you will get. the biggest problem is as we all know under acceleration the pinion input will rise beyond the ujoint/yokes operating range stretching straps and ubolts as well as throwing caps etc. when setting the pinion angle always do so with estimated wieght in your jeep. take into account for spring sag and the eventual "s" shape. be conservative. sometimes more then the 2* down rule-of-thumb can be better. keep an eye on it over time. i had to go back in and shim it down once. again its the dynamic wrap added to the exagerated pinion input angle that can be so problematic. another way to limit the effects of wrap ive gone to flanges rather then traditional yokes. ive found them to be more durable. many people will swap the straps for ubolts. i too tried the same thing and simply stretched those as well. you can also clearance the yoke a bit to allow for more angle or any other creative ideas to limit the bind caused by pinion rise. you just have to anticipate it and allow for it.
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Unread 02-20-2013, 07:03 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fratis View Post
you can definitly go without an antiwrap bar. the trick to it is not caring what your springs look like and the effect it has.
So you agree then, springs will tweak and crap will break. Your 'I-don't-care-about-that' approach is definitely not main stream logic. Most prefer to design breakage out of their Jeep rather than design it in. [P.S. Get a new kbd, your shift keys for upper case are broken, and make a paragraph once in a while.]
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Unread 02-20-2013, 07:38 AM   #10
TSEJEEPERS
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How about some pictures of your anti wrap bar?
I know of quite a few SOA jeeps that get away without using a anti wrap bar.
Not really sure how they get by without one.
Heavier springs and longer spring perches might have something to do with it.
So maybe some pictures of those too.
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Unread 02-20-2013, 07:45 AM   #11
dillonjm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSEJEEPERS View Post
How about some pictures of your anti wrap bar?
I know of quite a few SOA jeeps that get away without using a anti wrap bar.
Not really sure how they get by without one.
Heavier springs and longer spring perches might have something to do with it.
So maybe some pictures of those too.
Its the heavier spring.

Trucks run stock without wrap bars SOA in the rear and don't usually have S-wrap spring issues because of how thick the leaves are. In a Jeep this isn't really practical though, the stiffer spring would limit flex more than a wrap bar.

That said, trucks still get wrap, especially with high torque motors (like my Cummins). You can feel it wrap off of the line, esp if you're towing heavy.

I think you can design a good anti-wrap ladder style bar with a shackle on the frame end and some higher end joints that won't overly limit flex (enough to matter) and still be able to limit spring wrap.
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Unread 02-20-2013, 08:26 AM   #12
MisfitSeven
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What about adding Heim joints to your traction bar? Instead of using bushings.
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Unread 02-20-2013, 09:10 AM   #13
Chris
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I have hiems on my bar and don't see anywhere that it is limiting my flex.
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Unread 02-20-2013, 09:57 AM   #14
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This is mine. It has 3 poly bushings and 1 heim at the top of the shackle. This design provides nice shock absorption as power is applied, yet limits wrap very well. I mounted it as close to the center of the Jeep as possible and have yet to see any flex issues. I was without one for the first set of rear springs with the SOA. I added the anti-wrap after I found one side bent and two leafs broken (notice these sprigs are new). This bar happens to be the $400+ Skyjacker kit I scored new unused for $50, but I would have built one the same if I had not gotten a deal. In my opinion, all the exotic designs out there are just trying to squeeze the last 5% if efficiency over something like this.

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Unread 02-20-2013, 10:08 AM   #15
PA_YJ19
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My setup is almost identical to jeeper dons, if u don't have the the heim joint on one end then it its def going to restrict ur flex. U can even put heim joint on all 3 ends if ud like, I have bushing in the axle and a heim joint connected o the shackle mount I made up by my TC. Without one u risk breaking ur rear driveshaft in a sticky situation n leaving urself broke on the trail. Yes u can limp home in front wheel drive but I'm not a big fan ofthat, especially if r locked up front.



image-1799856196.jpg

There's a pic of mine after I built it/ before installing it. Post a pic of what ur working with n I'm sure sum1 can help.
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