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Unread 08-02-2010, 08:08 PM   #46
iowajeepers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefyter-Emt View Post
OMG... that is a freaking HACK JOB! What the heck did they think they were doing! I knew it was going to look bad as soon as you said they were going to just "not use" a freaking spring bushing! But what the heck is THAT!

That looks like thin body gauge sheet metal and I see no signs that they cut out the rot.
You were doing good until you started the exaggeration with "body gauge sheet metal. Hell, I'm no pro but even I can see that's around 3/16 to 1/4 steel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by giggityjeeper View Post
Im no pro here but even I cut the old out, I know know why they never used a new bushing, they just drilled new steel and covered over, you can see old frame on teh top above the new plate, its just been covered over...
This is common practice and proven time and again on offroad rigs. Yes, cut out the old, but there is NO NEED to flush weld.

I cut out the old and treated the remainder to stop the cancer, but I didn't cut pieces and flush weld, I used "splints". $120 for a full set (does both sides).



I'll put this fix up against any flush weld fix any time, any day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fitbmxseries1 View Post
i did mine with out dropping the gas and still got good welds back there. did both sides too. Ive repaired 4 frames like that already.
i really think they should have made the pieces bigger on your frame and at least finished the welding!
Though I did drop my tank to do this same fix (I need more room to weld than the pros), I completely agree. 3-sided splints, since 99% of the time the top rail of the frame is solid, does the trick. I checked my top rail and had hardening marks 1/2" - 3/4" or better into the original and splint metal. I'm no pro and I don't have an X-ray, but I would think that's hot enough for 3/16" frame welding.

You can see the rest at gallery.kulish.com.

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Unread 08-02-2010, 08:12 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hallsofstone View Post
I'll probably go ahead with the lift because I have to keep my Jeep on the road (if I can't get a frame fix first). I don't have the luxary of a rig that's not a daily driver. Suspension that's on there is terrible and the rear frame section HAS to be better than what I had.

It's not like I'm thrashing this rig and I'm not dumb enough to do so until the frame is fixed right. I'm driving it to work and it's getting to the point that I can't do that. You go try and run your rig with NO SHOCKS (mine are 100% shot) and saggy leaves and tell me what you think about the freeway. Funny thing, being poor. You only have so many resources. I have all the parts already and a very competant welder told me that it should be solid enough to at least do that.

When the time comes, we will unbolt the shackle and drop that leaf and gas tank. We have to do that either way to fix the frame, new suspension or old, so why does it matter at this point. I'm already screwed and it's scary to drive with a shot suspension.

Still working out the details on another welding shop. I might just turn this into a build thread if this goes on long enough. Pictures to come...
I'm not going to lecture you, judge you or hassle you. Goodness knows you began this in good faith. You are also an adult and this is still a free country.

The same applies to me, so here is my opinion of what I would likely do in this situation (and, of course, based on what you've told us, since that is all we have to go on).

The concept is 'triage' and it deals with addressing the most serious issues first. The rust problem and the shoddy repair seem most serious. I would address that correctly and rigorously first, and then I would take it from there. And I would probably get a little creative. 4x4 shops have plenty of stock take-offs. One might give you some used springs and shocks for free. Yes, why do it twice - but since money is an issue, I would focus my $$$ on the most pressing needs.

That is my opinion and again, not offered to be holier than thou or to presume to tell you what to do. Whatever happens, we are all behind you 100% and we all look forward to this lousy problem resolving in your favor.
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Unread 08-02-2010, 08:35 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iowajeepers View Post
You were doing good until you started the exaggeration with "body gauge sheet metal. Hell, I'm no pro but even I can see that's around 3/16 to 1/4 steel.



This is common practice and proven time and again on offroad rigs. Yes, cut out the old, but there is NO NEED to flush weld.

I cut out the old and treated the remainder to stop the cancer, but I didn't cut pieces and flush weld, I used "splints". $120 for a full set (does both sides).



I'll put this fix up against any flush weld fix any time, any day.



Though I did drop my tank to do this same fix (I need more room to weld than the pros), I completely agree. 3-sided splints, since 99% of the time the top rail of the frame is solid, does the trick. I checked my top rail and had hardening marks 1/2" - 3/4" or better into the original and splint metal. I'm no pro and I don't have an X-ray, but I would think that's hot enough for 3/16" frame welding.

You can see the rest at gallery.kulish.com.
I will agree that it's not fender gauge metal, but it's far from 1/4".... The first photo shown appears to have heat buckling on the side that is not welded. There is no way that 1/4" would do that and even 3/16" would be a stretch to get up the heat needed to warp it out like that. I do think the bottom patch is thicker than the sides too. Photos can lie, so without looking at it, there is no way to tell, however, for a patch, it's not up to par on gauge, prep, or design. I am also not a fan of a straight weld seam on frame repairs, a better repair would be to have them diamond the ends, and allow the new section to over lap about 3" of good clean steel. Then add a couple plug welds in that area in addition to the welded patch.

Better still would be section the rail from the same diameter as the stock rail and then fishplate over the repairs with full edge welds and plug welds in the middle.

Here is a photo I grabbed off Google to show what I am talking about. (not mine, but it is from a Jeep.
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Unread 08-02-2010, 08:41 PM   #49
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I guess I would agree that the splints I used would have been better had there been another hole to plug weld in the center, but they did almost reach to the top of the wheel well arch.

I think my weld pics showed all the openings being welded when I did mine. If not, they were.
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Unread 08-02-2010, 08:55 PM   #50
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Oh, don't get me wrong.... I think the replacement plates are a great repair, and the welds on yours appear to have great penetration. A couple 1/2" plug welds would of been perfect at the ends of the cut frame areas. Also, a proper application of weld-through primer on the patches and the old frame will help keep the rust at bay. Followed with a rustproofing sprayed inside the frame. I like a mixture of chainsaw bar oil, and automotive rust-proofing. Not a big fan of spray under-coating as it seems to just love to flake and cause more rust. In a pinch, brush application of Rustoilzum rusty metal paint seems to really stop/slow rust and it holds up well.

I would love to see a photo of the edge of the side patch just to see how thin it really is though. It's obvious left over scrap in the shop based on the odd rust patterns and crop circles present on the patch.
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Unread 08-02-2010, 08:58 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefyter-Emt View Post
Oh, don't get me wrong.... I think the replacement plates are a great repair, and the welds on yours appear to have great penetration. A couple 1/2" plug welds would of been perfect at the ends of the cut frame areas. Also, a proper application of weld-through primer on the patches and the old frame will help keep the rust at bay. Followed with a rustproofing sprayed inside the frame. I like a mixture of chainsaw bar oil, and automotive rust-proofing. Not a big fan of spray under-coating as it seems to just love to flake and cause more rust. In a pinch, brush application of Rustoilzum rusty metal paint seems to really stop/slow rust and it holds up well.

I would love to see a photo of the edge of the side patch just to see how thin it really is though. It's obvious left over scrap in the shop based on the odd rust patterns and crop circles present on the patch.
LOL... crop circles...
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Unread 08-02-2010, 09:22 PM   #52
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also lol'd at "crop circles".

Ok ok ok ok... I'm going to take a bunch of quality pictures of the hackey patch for you all and post them as I have tomorrow off. Those are crappy cell phone pics. I also have some of the original cancer, which was pretty hardcore. Also going to measure the metal that they decided not to weld so I can get a thickness for you all to think about. Clearly, this is an example of HOW NOT TO DO IT so I might as well get detailed!

I sure wish I could hear that convo between Jim (my mech) and that shop. Don't know when it happened or if it happened yet. I'm meeting with the #1 welder over at my auto shop tomorrow to do a triage (determine if it's really safe to put the lift on, since yall were worried ).

Additionally, I'd like to say that I picked up my entire lift kit on the cheap (total of $375 all inclusive) and that's the only reason I have it in the first place. It's ProComp, 2.5" lift with ES1000 shocks and all hardware. I also picked up an ES5000 steering stabilizer and bought Rancho heavy duty U bolts to replace the stockers (which I'm told was an intelligent idea). With that being said, I'm guessing that my Jeep currently sits about 1-2" lower than stock judging by my Dad's 94, which is sitting on new 0" lift shocks and good stock leaves. I may see as much as 2-4" in change to the height on my Jeep and probably significantly improved handling.

Thanks to all for the best wishes. This is going to get interesting/productive real fast!
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Unread 08-04-2010, 01:59 PM   #53
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Ok, scrath the productive. A girl came over and distracted me all day on my day off, then band practice, so nothing much got done...

BUT today, I went to meet with the head welder over at my auto shop. He says that yes, it's an ugly, unprofessional job. However, the welds seem to have penetrated deep enough as far as he's concerned. He also says that you should NEVER weld vertically along the frame and that's why that one side is not welded (though he seemed to think that it should have been a V shape horizontally into the rest of the frame to be stronger).

He says that having seen what it was, this should suffice for a solid fix for the time being, but that I should consider getting the weld-in sections. He says I got more than my money's worth for the $200 hack job or no.

He said to grind it all down and treat it with frame saver when I drop my leaves for the lift. Camera fogged up with the moisture in the area (storming hard as hell). Pics soon.
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Unread 08-04-2010, 07:18 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hallsofstone View Post
Ok, scrath the productive. A girl came over and distracted me all day on my day off, then band practice, so nothing much got done...

BUT today, I went to meet with the head welder over at my auto shop. He says that yes, it's an ugly, unprofessional job. However, the welds seem to have penetrated deep enough as far as he's concerned. He also says that you should NEVER weld vertically along the frame and that's why that one side is not welded (though he seemed to think that it should have been a V shape horizontally into the rest of the frame to be stronger).

He says that having seen what it was, this should suffice for a solid fix for the time being, but that I should consider getting the weld-in sections. He says I got more than my money's worth for the $200 hack job or no.

He said to grind it all down and treat it with frame saver when I drop my leaves for the lift. Camera fogged up with the moisture in the area (storming hard as hell). Pics soon.
Well, that is the first encouraging news yet - that you spent all day with a girl. It's also good news that that 'repair' might have some life left.

If you are going to grind the welds, then I wonder if it can be rewelded by someone good, at the same time adding the fishplates as suggested. If the metal they used was adequate, then perhaps a reweld with reinforcement is feasible. It is not something we can judge without seeing it in person, so perhaps discuss this option with your guy.
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Unread 08-04-2010, 07:27 PM   #55
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IMHO, that is a LAME excuse not to weld the side! I agree, it needs to have a > or better still a Z section. But to say it was better to just not weld it and let all that water and dirt to fill into it?? Come awn...

There may be a slight butt covering on both sides, but I think that there are some welds good enough to keep it on there and not let the spring fall off for road use. I have said all along that for $200, it was not enough to properly do this and you did not get taken too bad on that end. The point is that there is no excuse to hack a job that bad as a welder for hire. If the guy can not afford to do it right, don't hack a repair to save them money... That is a sure way to a heavy lawsuit down the road.

I would not grind it down, leave it as is for now and get some paint on it. Those sparks are going to fly heavy around the gas tank doing so. Too risky for little to no benefit other than to polish a turd of a repair. Wait until it's chopped right out and do it right. I highly suggest the repair ends that Q-Tech sells though. Replace them and fish plate over the sectioned ends for a great repair.
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Unread 08-04-2010, 07:47 PM   #56
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That's the plan for the future. A REAL fix. For sure.

Only real grinding I'll be doing is getting rid of that bead that seems to be touching the shackle. Just one little glob. I could probably get away with hand-filing it, to be honest...that minimal.

So, next up on this thread is going to be the lift process and the problems I'm sure I'll run into installing it. If I can ever get to it, pictures are surely on the way.
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Unread 08-04-2010, 08:18 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by hallsofstone View Post
That's the plan for the future. A REAL fix. For sure.

Only real grinding I'll be doing is getting rid of that bead that seems to be touching the shackle. Just one little glob. I could probably get away with hand-filing it, to be honest...that minimal.

So, next up on this thread is going to be the lift process and the problems I'm sure I'll run into installing it. If I can ever get to it, pictures are surely on the way.
Super. Post pictures of the girl, too.
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Unread 08-04-2010, 08:31 PM   #58
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If I can get her to actually go near the jeep I will...she told me that she thinks it might try to roll over top of her with jealousy based on the observation that it also marks its territory regularly.
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Unread 08-05-2010, 12:07 PM   #59
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OK...time for some pictures! First, the cancer itself:




aaaaand the crappy patch job:










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Unread 08-05-2010, 12:25 PM   #60
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Welcome to the Wild World of Corrosion. Anybody get their booster recently?

Ok, now how about some of the Jeep itself and the lift kit that's about to go on there. My entire family calls it the Black Sheep Jeep...

The day I first went to go look at it:




Weaksauce poserflexin' on my rock pile in the driveway (2nd day I owned it):




What it usually looks like in the parking lot at work (I got stuck and had to reverse out of the mudhole):


NO cat to a hiflow muffler. This thing is loud/awesome:


And the lift kit I'm putting on (hopefully this weekend or otherwise soon):












My clean gauge:


Inside:










And the Motor:


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Last edited by hallsofstone; 08-05-2010 at 02:19 PM.. Reason: double posted one pic - had to change it up
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