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Unread 02-23-2014, 12:40 PM   #1
totesthouse
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No crank, what am I missing?

So here are the symptoms, I'm a bit stumped at this point and hoping I am missing something obvious.

- Jeep will not start, no crank when turning key (I do get the CEL). I was able to get it to start by shorting the starter with a screw driver.

- Worked my way back to PDC, pulled starter relay and shorted between the fuse terminal (30) and the solenoid terminal (87) with a jumper wire. (removed PDC and traced wires underneath before shorting), Jeep fired up.

- Moved to the ignition terminal of the starter relay board (85 of relay). Turn key and I have 12 volts (with relay pulled). I even ran a temp wire from the solenoid, shoved it in the ignition switch terminal (by accident) and was able to start the jeep when turning the key.

- With relay in place. Ran test wire through bottom of PDC to 86 position. Turning key and get nothing. Honestly not sure what I should be looking for here but saw nothing for amps or voltage.

So I guess it could be bad terminals/dirty terminals or pin 86 having a grounding issue. Where should I be looking for ground issues on 86? Manual says this goes out to "Engine Controller". Guessing this is the ECU and its goes to a harness somewhere? I noticed that the reversed lights may be on this circuit and they do work as expected.

***edit*** pulled codes and got a 14 which appears to be map sensor, researching that now.


Last edited by totesthouse; 02-23-2014 at 07:02 PM.. Reason: wrong information originally on relay pins
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Unread 02-23-2014, 08:33 PM   #2
laybackman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totesthouse View Post
So here are the symptoms, I'm a bit stumped at this point and hoping I am missing something obvious.

- Jeep will not start, no crank when turning key (I do get the CEL). I was able to get it to start by shorting the starter with a screw driver.

- Worked my way back to PDC, pulled starter relay and shorted between the fuse terminal (30) and the solenoid terminal (87) with a jumper wire. (removed PDC and traced wires underneath before shorting), Jeep fired up.

- Moved to the ignition terminal of the starter relay board (85 of relay). Turn key and I have 12 volts (with relay pulled). I even ran a temp wire from the solenoid, shoved it in the ignition switch terminal (by accident) and was able to start the jeep when turning the key.

- With relay in place. Ran test wire through bottom of PDC to 86 position. Turning key and get nothing. Honestly not sure what I should be looking for here but saw nothing for amps or voltage.

So I guess it could be bad terminals/dirty terminals or pin 86 having a grounding issue. Where should I be looking for ground issues on 86? Manual says this goes out to "Engine Controller". Guessing this is the ECU and its goes to a harness somewhere? I noticed that the reversed lights may be on this circuit and they do work as expected.

***edit*** pulled codes and got a 14 which appears to be map sensor, researching that now.
The ground for the starter relay is on the transmission. Your tranny is a stick. The wire color is or/blk. If you ground it out after pulling the wire off of the tranny and the engine fire up the sensor is NG.
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Unread 02-24-2014, 04:26 AM   #3
totesthouse
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Awesome, I will check that out when I get a chance. Where exactly should I be looking and when you say "sensor " which one in particular if I do end up needing to replace it? Thanks for the reply, this has been killing me.
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Unread 02-24-2014, 08:07 AM   #4
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Awesome, I will check that out when I get a chance. Where exactly should I be looking and when you say "sensor " which one in particular if I do end up needing to replace it? Thanks for the reply, this has been killing me.
I screwed up!

The reverse light switch is screwed into the tranny.

The schematic shows a ground for the starter relay. It is a BLK/ORG wire. It is a simple ground wire attached to the passengers side of the engine near the oil dipstick. If that wire is loose/broken/corroded you get nothing when you hit the key.
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Unread 02-24-2014, 06:07 PM   #5
totesthouse
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Still no start. I found that ground and cleaned it up, but no start. (Not sure how I missed that before)

- Used meter at under underside of Pdu terminal at pin 86. Positive probe to 86 and negative directly to battery shows 12 volts.

- I then ran jumper directly from battery negative to pin 86. Same symptoms, no crank. (Tried this both with and without BL/ORG wire at dipstick. No change)

- with test wire in place, tested voltage again at yellow wire/ ignition terminal. Turning key shows 12 volts.

- with test wire in place, tested voltage at 86 when turning key and it fluctuates between 9.5 and 10 volts. What is that pointing to? Dirty terminals? Inside for the night thawing out. Good times.
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Unread 02-24-2014, 06:20 PM   #6
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Swap out the starter relay for another relay like the horn relay. See if the horn still works. Cheap way to test a relay!
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Unread 02-24-2014, 06:52 PM   #7
totesthouse
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Yes, tried that and then bought a new one yesterday just to be sure because it was not making sense. No luck. Sorry thought I included that in my original post, just re read it.
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Unread 02-25-2014, 06:10 AM   #8
totesthouse
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Testing grounds further last night with jumper wires at bottom of relay terminals and shorted something, not sure how as everything seemed to be hooked to grounds only.

In any case, as soon as I touched a jumper from 86 to the negative on the battery the 40 amp fuse blew for the Starter relay (turned a very bright red while doing it).

I did not have a spare to replace it but I have no check engine light when turning key. Headlights do work, threw in the towel before checking all other fuses but that does not leave me with a good feeling.
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Unread 02-25-2014, 07:22 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totesthouse View Post
Testing grounds further last night with jumper wires at bottom of relay terminals and shorted something, not sure how as everything seemed to be hooked to grounds only.

In any case, as soon as I touched a jumper from 86 to the negative on the battery the 40 amp fuse blew for the Starter relay (turned a very bright red while doing it).

I did not have a spare to replace it but I have no check engine light when turning key. Headlights do work, threw in the towel before checking all other fuses but that does not leave me with a good feeling.
Here is the layout for your starter relay.



If you remove the relay and place your ignition in the ON position and use a jumper wire to jump pin 87 (power in from the 40 amp fuse) to pin 30 (power out) your starter should turn the engine over.

It also tells you that everything after the relay is good.

If you turn the ignition key to ON and you see voltage at pin 86 the wiring and ignition switch circuit that energizes the starter relay is OK. Now, if the starter doesn't make a peep when you hit the key their are only two possible issues left to investigate. That is the ground circuit coming from the NSS and the relay itself. Get a length of 16 gauge stranded wire and shove it into the pin 85 socket and then re-install the relay now ground out the other end of that wire. Now hit the key. Did it start? if it did the issue is with the ground source for the starter relay
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Unread 02-25-2014, 08:00 AM   #10
totesthouse
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Apologies for not using the quote tool correctly.

Think I keep getting mixed up with the starter relay numbers. (keep thinking 85 and 86 are reversed but not not near my jeep to orient myself) So have to answer your questions in regards to physical wiring.

"If you remove the relay and place your ignition in the ON position and use a jumper wire to jump pin 87 (power in from the 40 amp fuse) to pin 30 (power out) your starter should turn the engine over."

Yes, this works. (At least before I blew the fuse last night)

"If you turn the ignition key to ON and you see voltage at pin 86 the wiring and ignition switch circuit that energizes the starter relay is OK."

I see 12 volts at ignition wire terminal (the one with yellow wire which I believes comes from ignition).

On other side of coil BL/OR wire I see 8.5 to 10 sometimes or nothing (tested with meter positive connected to terminal with BL/OR and meter negative grounded at engine and turning key).

"Get a length of 16 gauge stranded wire and shove it into the pin 85 socket and then re-install the relay now ground out the other end of that wire. Now hit the key. Did it start? if it did the issue is with the ground source for the starter relay"

Took wire from negative of battery, shoved into underside of relay terminal with wire (BL/OR) that runs to ground behind dipstick. Placed on battery negative post, turned key nothing.

Played around with jumpers. Went to try a second time because it made no sense and as soon as I touched the jumper running from the ground terminal of the PDU (the one with the BL/OR wire) to the negative terminal of the battery , the 40 amp fuse blew. Key was not in ON position as far as I know.

Thinking maybe I had part of my jumper on the BL/OR wire terminal touching the FUSE terminal by accident, only thing I can think of.

And yes, I realize how ridiculous this sounds.

Last edited by totesthouse; 02-25-2014 at 08:12 AM..
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Unread 02-25-2014, 10:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totesthouse View Post
Apologies for not using the quote tool correctly.

Think I keep getting mixed up with the starter relay numbers. (keep thinking 85 and 86 are reversed but not not near my jeep to orient myself) So have to answer your questions in regards to physical wiring.

"If you remove the relay and place your ignition in the ON position and use a jumper wire to jump pin 87 (power in from the 40 amp fuse) to pin 30 (power out) your starter should turn the engine over."

Yes, this works. (At least before I blew the fuse last night)

"If you turn the ignition key to ON and you see voltage at pin 86 the wiring and ignition switch circuit that energizes the starter relay is OK."

I see 12 volts at ignition wire terminal (the one with yellow wire which I believes comes from ignition).

On other side of coil BL/OR wire I see 8.5 to 10 sometimes or nothing (tested with meter positive connected to terminal with BL/OR and meter negative grounded at engine and turning key).

"Get a length of 16 gauge stranded wire and shove it into the pin 85 socket and then re-install the relay now ground out the other end of that wire. Now hit the key. Did it start? if it did the issue is with the ground source for the starter relay"

Took wire from negative of battery, shoved into underside of relay terminal with wire (BL/OR) that runs to ground behind dipstick. Placed on battery negative post, turned key nothing.

Played around with jumpers. Went to try a second time because it made no sense and as soon as I touched the jumper running from the ground terminal of the PDU (the one with the BL/OR wire) to the negative terminal of the battery , the 40 amp fuse blew. Key was not in ON position as far as I know.

Thinking maybe I had part of my jumper on the BL/OR wire terminal touching the FUSE terminal by accident, only thing I can think of.

And yes, I realize how ridiculous this sounds.
You have to test the blk/org wire for ground. If you somehow sent voltage to ground directly you get a blown fuse.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx


"On other side of coil BL/OR wire I see 8.5 to 10 sometimes or nothing (tested with meter positive connected to terminal with BL/OR and meter negative grounded at engine and turning key)."

You're at the coil?? Stay within the starter relay circuitry.
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Unread 02-25-2014, 10:12 AM   #12
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Here is a schematic of your start circuit;




If you do not have an automatic tranny then the ground for the starter relay is hard wired onto the right side of the engine. You can see where the other wires come from or go to.
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Unread 02-25-2014, 10:25 AM   #13
totesthouse
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Hmm, I definitely am confused with the pin orientation. To clarify, in the schematic you posted for the relay (the fuse picture only, not the terminal pic to the left). If I were to plug that exact relay to my terminal, 85 would land on my ignition wire, 86 would land at the terminal with my BL/OR wire that runs directly to the ground at the back of the dipstick. Also the orientation of the pins is different. This seems to be to be the reverse of how your pic lays those to pins out.

So, in my post #5, I am referring to pin 86 as the terminal that has my wire running to ground (BL/OR).

Thinking I may need to bypass the entire PDU with a test fuse, relay and jumper wires at this point.

Only thing that makes any sense to me is bad terminals or 3 bad relays (including a new one dead of the box) but what are the odds of that?
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Unread 02-25-2014, 10:30 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by totesthouse View Post
Hmm, I definitely am confused with the pin orientation. To clarify, in the schematic you posted for the relay (the fuse picture only, not the terminal pic to the left). If I were to plug that exact relay to my terminal, 85 would land on my ignition wire, 86 would land at the terminal with my BL/OR wire that runs directly to the ground at the back of the dipstick. Also the orientation of the pins is different. This seems to be to be the reverse of how your pic lays those to pins out.

So, in my post #5, I am referring to pin 86 as the terminal that has my wire running to ground (BL/OR).

Thinking I may need to bypass the entire PDU with a test fuse, relay and jumper wires at this point.

Only thing that makes any sense to me is bad terminals or 3 bad relays (including a new one dead of the box) but what are the odds of that?
Ignore the pin #s. Go by wire color of the starter relay socket wiring instead!
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Unread 02-25-2014, 11:21 AM   #15
totesthouse
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No problem, and thanks again for sticking with me on this. I do appreciate it. I just can't see what would be causing this problem

So ignoring pin #s here is what post 5 should say.

I found the ground at the dipstick with BLK/ORG wire and cleaned it up, but no start. (Not sure how I missed that before)

- With relay in place. Used meter at under underside of Pdu terminal of BLK/OR wire. Positive probe to terminal and negative probe directly to battery NEG shows 12 volts.

- With relay in place. I then ran jumper directly from battery negative to terminal with BLK/ORG wire. Same symptoms, no crank. (Tried this both with and without BL/ORG wire at dipstick. No change)

- With relay and with test wire in place (from battery NEG to terminal with BLK/ORG), tested voltage again at yellow wire (ignition terminal). Turning key shows 12 volts.

- with test wire in place, tested voltage at BLK/ORG when turning key and it fluctuates between 9.5 and 10 volts. No clue what should be seen here.
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