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Introducing MONSTALINER™ UV Permanent DIY Roll On Bed Line~Artec JK 1 TON SWAP~Advance Adapters SYE Kits

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Unread 03-02-2013, 08:24 PM   #1
Rproject
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The great carb upgrade debate

Alright guys. Here we go. Took the Wrangler out wheeling today and the results are:

Yokohama Geolander AT/S tire success - 100%
OME 2.5" lift kit success - 100%
NP207 resealing success - 100%
Transmission resealing success - 100%
4.2L motor performance - 50%

Why 50%? That stupid rickem frickem frackem Carter carb started crapping out after an hour of off camber running. The POS died out on my several times. Back on the road she was fine. Off road, she - well let's say - didn't perform so well. The Mrs has given me the green light to start looking at a replacement carb.

So let the debate begin. Holley - Weber - Motorcraft. GO!!

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Unread 03-03-2013, 06:00 AM   #2
90DesertTanYJ
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Wheedle a little more and go fuelie. You will never have the off camber issue again......well at least as long as it can get gas from the tank.
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Unread 03-03-2013, 06:01 AM   #3
blown50
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Holley and motorcraft are the simplest to tune, takes a bit of fabrication to bolt them on, Weber is a direct bolt on and you can keep your stock air system, but requires more knowledge to tune!
That being said I like my weber, it's a progressive 2 barrel that gets 19-23 mpg. Although it is a bit to small for my 4.7 stroker. I have been entertaining the thoughts of putting on a 4 bbl Holley. So to sum it up, the 2 bbl motorcraft or Holley would be the cheapest, The weber will be more expense, But it's a direct bolt on, and you can keep your stock breather and hot air tubes. And can't say about the 4 bbl cause I haven't did it yet

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Unread 03-03-2013, 07:09 AM   #4
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^^ the weber gives options, u can ditch the entire emissions and air assembly if u dont have emissions check where you are.....once that crap is gone it is simpler to tune, mine trouble free for about 6 years now
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Unread 03-03-2013, 07:34 AM   #5
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I like webers but don't get the weber 34. Get a 32/36 progressive or a 38 synchronized.

The motorcraft didn't work well for me.

A Holley two barrel worked super, froma 70s or early 80s dodge v8.

The Holley 4 barrel works super for me too, though. I have been running my Holley 450 for a long while now. Probably the longest of all the carbs. Only thing I haven't gotten to work on it is the cruise control that came stock. But other then that, it is a great carb
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Unread 03-03-2013, 08:10 AM   #6
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like superj I run a holley 4 bbl and have had great results with it, it did require changing the manifold. I have read that they have problems offroad, the wheeling in fla is pretty flat so I haven't experienced any problems.
I had the weber 32-36 before, it was ok but mileage wasn't great.
even though I luv carbs I have to say that fuel injection is the best way to go offroad. you might consider it if you wheel hard.
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Unread 03-03-2013, 10:06 AM   #7
Berniebikes
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consider fuel injection. for about the cost of putting on a new motorcraft carb you can do a tbi injection system and not have to worry about tuning again
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Unread 03-03-2013, 01:29 PM   #8
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Im running a Motorcraft 2100 off an old mustang and it works wonders better than the old carter the only difficulties i had with it was finding bigger sized jets for it. and i just ordered an adaptor from speedway to get it to fit

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Unread 03-03-2013, 02:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berniebikes View Post
consider fuel injection. for about the cost of putting on a new motorcraft carb you can do a tbi injection system and not have to worry about tuning again
I've heard this statement before and, unless there's some seriously fuzzy math involved, can't understand how a $1,300 Howell kit and a $300 Motorcraft of $400 Holley kit are "about the same cost".

http://howellefi.com/tbi-kit-1987-91...ons-legal.html


http://www.ebay.com/itm/221195838025...84.m1438.l2649
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Unread 03-03-2013, 02:27 PM   #10
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he was probably talking about adapting a jy fuel injection. I believe I saw a thread on using one from a chevy.
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Unread 03-03-2013, 02:39 PM   #11
Berniebikes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rproject View Post
I've heard this statement before and, unless there's some seriously fuzzy math involved, can't understand how a $1,300 Howell kit and a $300 Motorcraft of $400 Holley kit are "about the same cost".
A Howell kit isn't the only choice, and Howell wouldn't be my recommendation anyway. Howell uses the GM throttle body system and
ECM common to a multitude of GM engines from the mid 80s to the 90s. There were different throttle bodies and different injectors depending upon the engine it was used on. A GM 4.3L V6 is quite similar to our 4.2L so you can use components off of them, or just take what you can find off of other vehicles as long as you end up with an ECM from a 4.3L engine. If you put together the system from parts off of a junk yard vehicle, purchase a new fuel pump (one off of a mid 90's Crown Vic is perfect), buy a speed sensor and an adapter plate to bolt the throttle body to your intake, then you can indeed put together a TBI system, better than Howell's for about the same cost as buying Motorcraft carb and associated jets/parts to get a good tune.

What Howell offers, which is absolutely necessary to people in California, is a system that has been tested and contains tags to meet EPA requirements. As far as I can tell the only part they furnish unique to their kit is the adapter plate (Howell doesn't sell it apart from the set). Everything else is either a common part, or a refurbished part from a GM manufacture throttle body system. What Howell doesn't do is control the ignition through their setup (for reasons I really don't understand, but I'm sure they have one). In my opinion you lose a great benefit of having a Fuel Injection system if you don't let it advance/retard your timing and provide a tuned spark for your engine.

If you put a system together yourself you can use the feature already built into the GM ECM to control your spark. You can also use a knock sensor, an optional item which Howell also doesn't use, to retard spark if you start getting engine knock, and you can install a speed sensor to allow the appropriate fuel and spark for decelerations and other engine conditions, also something that doesn't come with the Howell kit. But, you need to be willing to assemble all the part and pieces yourself usually from different sources, remove unnecessary wires from a used harness (which may involve some soldering and connections), rebuild a throttle body, and follow some simple procedures for initial startup and setup. If you are willing to do those things and forgo the tech support that Howell can offer, then you can save yourself about $900. The choice for me was pretty easy (getting a system for $900 less that functions better than a kit for me was a no brainer).

There's no fuzzy math involved, just some work and effort. My costs for a throttle body system, including the $70 I spent for an ALDL to USB connector cable to be able to read and trouble shoot the system, was just over $400 and that included purchasing new the speed sensor, knock sensor, ignition module, adapter plates, throttle body rebuild kit, fuel pump and filter, IAC valve, and the connector cable I mentioned. Everything else came from the junk yard.

BTW, if you do it yourself you will use the same throttle body, ECM, sensors, injectors, connectors, fuel pump etc. that Howell furnishes in their kit!

Bernie
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Unread 03-03-2013, 03:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berniebikes View Post
A Howell kit isn't the only choice, and Howell wouldn't be my recommendation anyway. Howell uses the GM throttle body system and
ECM common to a multitude of GM engines from the mid 80s to the 90s. There were different throttle bodies and different injectors depending upon the engine it was used on. A GM 4.3L V6 is quite similar to our 4.2L so you can use components off of them, or just take what you can find off of other vehicles as long as you end up with an ECM from a 4.3L engine. If you put together the system from parts off of a junk yard vehicle, purchase a new fuel pump (one off of a mid 90's Crown Vic is perfect), buy a speed sensor and an adapter plate to bolt the throttle body to your intake, then you can indeed put together a TBI system, better than Howell's for about the same cost as buying Motorcraft carb and associated jets/parts to get a good tune.

What Howell offers, which is absolutely necessary to people in California, is a system that has been tested and contains tags to meet EPA requirements. As far as I can tell the only part they furnish unique to their kit is the adapter plate (Howell doesn't sell it apart from the set). Everything else is either a common part, or a refurbished part from a GM manufacture throttle body system. What Howell doesn't do is control the ignition through their setup (for reasons I really don't understand, but I'm sure they have one). In my opinion you lose a great benefit of having a Fuel Injection system if you don't let it advance/retard your timing and provide a tuned spark for your engine.

If you put a system together yourself you can use the feature already built into the GM ECM to control your spark. You can also use a knock sensor, an optional item which Howell also doesn't use, to retard spark if you start getting engine knock, and you can install a speed sensor to allow the appropriate fuel and spark for decelerations and other engine conditions, also something that doesn't come with the Howell kit. But, you need to be willing to assemble all the part and pieces yourself usually from different sources, remove unnecessary wires from a used harness (which may involve some soldering and connections), rebuild a throttle body, and follow some simple procedures for initial startup and setup. If you are willing to do those things and forgo the tech support that Howell can offer, then you can save yourself about $900. The choice for me was pretty easy (getting a system for $900 less that functions better than a kit for me was a no brainer).

There's no fuzzy math involved, just some work and effort. My costs for a throttle body system, including the $70 I spent for an ALDL to USB connector cable to be able to read and trouble shoot the system, was just over $400 and that included purchasing new the speed sensor, knock sensor, ignition module, adapter plates, throttle body rebuild kit, fuel pump and filter, IAC valve, and the connector cable I mentioned. Everything else came from the junk yard.

BTW, if you do it yourself you will use the same throttle body, ECM, sensors, injectors, connectors, fuel pump etc. that Howell furnishes in their kit!

Bernie

While I appreciate the ingenuity and inventiveness of building a kit from scratch, when it comes to items like fuel delivery, seat risers, suspensions, I'd prefer to leave it in the hands of a system that is tested, verified, certified and warranted. IF there is every a problem, an insurance company won't pay a claim on a system that was home built.
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Unread 03-03-2013, 03:33 PM   #13
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Your choice man, just offering advice and providing facts since you opened up the subject and asked for debate.

I understand your point about testing and proving for various components. However you have no guarantee of operability or anything else if you choose to put an aftermarket carb on your vehicle and stray from a stock component, and you have about as much chance of causing an engine problem with that as with any other system. Regardless, insurance companies don't typically insure mechanical components nor pay claims on them so you are on your own (at least in that regard) whichever way you choose to go.

I'm perfectly comfortable with the testing and verification of the literally millions of GM vehicles that ran TBI systems, as well as the thousands of folks who have done a TBI conversion to their 4.2 engines. I believe the system's use on most any engine has been reliably proven many times over, but like I said I acknowledge your reluctance and the point you made.

Good luck to you whichever carb or system you choose.
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Unread 03-04-2013, 04:44 PM   #14
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OK, back on topic.

In regards to the Motorcraft 2100/2150. Those who run them, have you had any problems with starving or flooding out while off road? This is my biggest problem with the Carter. The damn thing just wants to die when I get off camber, and we're not talking Moab off camber. We're talking Midwest off camber. LOL
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Unread 03-04-2013, 10:27 PM   #15
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OK, back on topic.

In regards to the Motorcraft 2100/2150. Those who run them, have you had any problems with starving or flooding out while off road? This is my biggest problem with the Carter. The damn thing just wants to die when I get off camber, and we're not talking Moab off camber. We're talking Midwest off camber. LOL
Motorcraft is amazing offroad. I've sat at some crazy angles idling for 5-10 min, no problem.. Got me home on 4.8v before also! Alternator slowly died..
I did nutter bypass along with ignition upgrade and deleted all but 3 vacuum lines
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