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Unread 08-01-2009, 09:47 AM   #1
rain-gler
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getting fuel...getting spark...TBI is filling...tried starter fluid...

so do I now need to check for timing?

The problem seems to have begun when I ran a bottle of fuel/injector cleaner (gumout) in the fuel tank. The jeep used to fire up after about 2 seconds of cranking. Then it would take a while longer and I had to press the accelerator, sometimes flooring it to get it to fire up.

Recently, I would have to crank for about 10 seconds to get it going...it would start coughing after I floored it and I would have to pump the gas pedal several times.

Now it just cranks and when I press the gas it coughs as if maybe 1 or 2 cylinders are firing but does not seem to want to fire up.

cap and rotor look clean
checked for good spark...no help
have new spark plugs...no help
poured a little gas in the throttle body...no help
sprayed starter fluid...no help
disco-ed the battery to intend to reset timing...no help
Pulled the fuel filter...good pressure from the tank
reconnected the fuel filter and checked...good pressure after the filter

I would get backfiring from time to time when it ran.
Also, I have what appears to be a timing cover oil leak. Could the timing chain have jumped a gear?

Like I said, it used to take a long time to start and would purr fine on the highway once running.

Can a car still run with a jumped chain?

thanks for any help or suggestions

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Unread 08-01-2009, 10:30 AM   #2
Que89YJ
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No start

You need to check the Crank sensor and coil. I couldnt tell by your post if you actually saw spark. If you have spark then you need to check your timing if no spark the coil or CPS.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 11:41 AM   #3
rain-gler
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Yes I have spark. Last night in darkness, I saw a good bolt from removing a spark plug and laying it against the block.


When I depress the gas, I get coughing. It used to eventually fire up after giving it gas but now it doesn't at all. But it feels like it surely wants to. Does timing 'slowly' lose it synchronization?

I thought it was fuel issues until I sprayed 'quick start' and then gas into the t-body with no difference.
Then I checked for spark.

So that has to leave timing?

So I assume I have to do the TDC alignment procedure. But I thought the computer controlled the timing.
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Unread 08-01-2009, 12:43 PM   #4
Burnerman
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Hold the gas pedal to the floor and crank it. See if it starts.....
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Unread 08-01-2009, 03:31 PM   #5
Delta347
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I'd recommend checking all your wires for spark if you only did one of the cylinders (even if you replaced all your wires/plugs recently). My friend's 90 had an issue like this and it turned out his capables had disintegrated inside so they produced spark but not enough if any at all.

I second burnerman's suggestion. You might even want to have someone cranking while you make sure the throttle is actually engaging and if it isn't or isn't all the way have someone hold it open at the TBI itself. And keep holding it down while cranking, if it starts give it a few seconds before slowly releasing it.

My cousin's truck had a problem like this and all it needed was to get that lucky start up and burn off some additives he had put in.
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Unread 08-04-2009, 06:55 PM   #6
rain-gler
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update:

I get plenty of gas into the intake. So I removed the valve cover to check for stuck valves...looked fine.
I removed the main coil wire and stuck a spark plug in it and cranked...hot fire at proper intervals.

So I manually turned the crank to TDC and the rotor is between the cylinders. I even turned it again one revolution to see if I was at the exhaust stroke and it was pointing in no-man's land.

Looks like a timing chain jump.

But anyhow, I am dismantling everything to prepare for an engine swap (pics will come soon)

Any pointers on if my assumptions are correct.

Good gas, good fire leaves bad timing (distributor or chain). My confusion is how a timing problem gets worse. It would seem to either be GO or NO GO and the thing should not start at all. But my starting problems eventually got worse, not just all of a sudden.
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Unread 08-04-2009, 07:28 PM   #7
Matt_vs_YJ
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My first thought is that you're getting too much gas rather than not enough (leaking injector o-ring, bad fuel regulator ect.)

Edit: Also, when you're checking for TDC try using a wooden dowel through the spark plug hole to locate it, there's no telling if the marks on the balancer are accurate any more. When you're at TDC the rotor is usually just past the location of the #1 plug wire.
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Unread 08-04-2009, 07:33 PM   #8
rain-gler
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hmmmm...that might explain why I used to have to floor it when starting it. It opens the throttle to let air in.

I remember having to floor carbed engines when they were flooded. But fuel injected computer cars are not supposed to need any accelerator action when starting.

I seem to remember my spark plugs looking very dry, however. I need to pull them and look inside the cylinder.

But it still does not explain my rotor position. Is it safe to assume the the notch and TDC lines are accurate? Isn't there a keyway in the harmonic pulley to assure this?
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Unread 08-04-2009, 08:33 PM   #9
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I am probably wrong, but doesnt the O2 sensor regulate fuel to air mixture and if it is bad would it affect starting? I.E. taking longer to send a signal therefore injecting more fuel or more air into the TBI. Just something I read on wiki.
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Unread 08-05-2009, 07:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rain-gler View Post
But it still does not explain my rotor position. Is it safe to assume the the notch and TDC lines are accurate? Isn't there a keyway in the harmonic pulley to assure this?
The center of the balancer does indeed have a keyway that will keep it from turning, but it's the rubber layer that deteriorates and can slip around, thus throwing off your marks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RebuildRookie View Post
I am probably wrong, but doesnt the O2 sensor regulate fuel to air mixture and if it is bad would it affect starting? I.E. taking longer to send a signal therefore injecting more fuel or more air into the TBI. Just something I read on wiki.
The reading from the O2 sensor is not used during initial startup and warmup modes, the ECU runs off a set program (open loop mode). The only inputs active are the Coolant temp sensor, Manifold air temp sensor, MAP sensor, and CPS. The WOT switch is still active, so if you're holding the pedal to the floor before the engine is started, then the injector stops firing to keep from flooding.
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Unread 08-05-2009, 08:16 AM   #11
rain-gler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_vs_YJ View Post
The center of the balancer does indeed have a keyway that will keep it from turning, but it's the rubber layer that deteriorates and can slip around, thus throwing off your marks.
So I figure need to stick my finger on the spark hole and feel for TDC and then check the rotor position?
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Unread 08-05-2009, 08:42 AM   #12
rain-gler
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okay this case is closed.

As I turned the crankshaft with my 19mm socket, I can hear air gushing through the valves. Plus there was no air pressure against my finger in the spark plug hole...I mean NONE.

Looks like a valve (upper) issue. That's cool anyway because I am swapping the engine out and will rebuild the old one eventually.

I appreciate all the help.

Here is my swap thread:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/newbie-2-5-2-5-engine-swap-w-pic-updates-guidance-requested-831297/

Last edited by rain-gler; 08-05-2009 at 11:30 AM.. Reason: updated
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