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Unread 09-05-2012, 08:32 PM   #91
plym49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelgoesrawr View Post
Yeah. The 195 isn't even a year old. Put it in last Christmas. The one in there works though. Just never seems to get up to that center line.

I have no idea if it's working or not. How would you test that? I also have the one from my old motor so if one doesn't I'm sure the other will work.
If the other motor was not overheating, it works. Or, put it in a pot of water and turn up the heat. Use a thermometer and see if it opens when it come up to temperature. A 195 is close enough to boiling tht you can just look to see that the thermostat is open right before the water boils.

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Unread 09-05-2012, 10:26 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plym49

If the other motor was not overheating, it works. Or, put it in a pot of water and turn up the heat. Use a thermometer and see if it opens when it come up to temperature. A 195 is close enough to boiling tht you can just look to see that the thermostat is open right before the water boils.
Sorry. I meant the egr valve. The thermostat is good.
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Unread 09-06-2012, 06:11 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Michaelgoesrawr View Post
Sorry. I meant the egr valve. The thermostat is good.
See if it gets vacuum under the correct engine operating conditions, and remove it to see if it looks and works OK.
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Unread 09-14-2012, 01:43 AM   #94
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I re ran the vacuum lines to be safe. It gets vacuum at speeds higher than idle. I also rechecked codes and I got 12,15, and 45 as opposed to just 12 last time I did it. Literally, 12 over and over.
The normal JF code check pages doesn't have any info on this so I just searched for gm codes and found different sites.
http://freeautomechanic.com/diagnostictroblecodes5.html
That one says I don't have a distributor pulse(12), engine temp is cool(15) and rich exhaust(45)

http://www.troublecodes.net/GM/
and that one says that it's the start(12), engine temp is cool(15) and rich exhaust(45).

I was hoping to get this thing smogged tomorrow morning but I am unsure now. Hopefully someone can chime in and we can get this thing back on the road. Lol
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Unread 09-14-2012, 07:03 AM   #95
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from the howell diagnostic charts: 45 wrong fuel pressure (too high above 9 psi) look for return line restrictions or bad regulation or O2 sensor stays above .7 v for more than a minute {boogered up sensor}. an EGR sticking open (common) during start does this also. 15 is low coolant temp. caused by either a wire connection open for more than 3 seconds, or actual low coolant temp. FWIW I once bought a bad brand new thermostat from a car parts place, so they get tested before I put them in. Can't find it now, but I think the ECM wants to see at least 165 degrees. Try a blocking 1/2 of the radiator with a piece of cardboard until you get to almost 3/4 on the temp gauge.

12 will flash if any other codes are set, (they are) or until the diagnostic shorting jumper is removed. pretty much a non issue here.
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Unread 09-14-2012, 10:44 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piotrsko
from the howell diagnostic charts: 45 wrong fuel pressure (too high above 9 psi) look for return line restrictions or bad regulation or O2 sensor stays above .7 v for more than a minute {boogered up sensor}. an EGR sticking open (common) during start does this also. 15 is low coolant temp. caused by either a wire connection open for more than 3 seconds, or actual low coolant temp. FWIW I once bought a bad brand new thermostat from a car parts place, so they get tested before I put them in. Can't find it now, but I think the ECM wants to see at least 165 degrees. Try a blocking 1/2 of the radiator with a piece of cardboard until you get to almost 3/4 on the temp gauge.

12 will flash if any other codes are set, (they are) or until the diagnostic shorting jumper is removed. pretty much a non issue here.
I tried to find that on their website last night but I had no luck. It all said they troubleshooted like an 88-93 gmc pickup. And the engine wasn't warm so I'm not worried about the coolant temp. I installed a known working thermostat out of my prior engine a few days ago, 195. I'll go blow out the return line too and check the sensor.
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Unread 09-14-2012, 09:45 PM   #97
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It occurred to me that I unplugged the coolant sensor when I was re running new vacuum lines and if I have high fuel pressure it means my pump is going bad because the howell fuel pump is supposed to operate at 12-15 psi at all times, hopefully it's not that because a new one is $130. I pulled off my EGR valve and did the suck test(I cannot find a vacuum pump for the life of me) and I never felt resistance, so i'm not exactly sure what that means.
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Unread 09-15-2012, 09:38 AM   #98
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dude, chill out.

look at my post again. you are running rich. these are the reasons why:

EGR valve comes off the manifold and can be cleaned/replaced. yes you can suck on a vacuum line and the stem on the EGR valve should move visibly. If it doesn't is needs cleaning or is bad. a ruptured diaphragm could cause your symptoms and the stem won't move. See brake line test below.

The throttle body itself regulates the pressure back to the tank. Pump going bad would give you less pressure, not more. in my 50 years wrenching on cars I've NEVER seen one have too much pressure. That is why Howell said to blow out the return line. the high fuel pressure symptom was for the people that used their own pump and regulator.

Pull the large vacuum line off the brake booster, reset ECM, run engine for a while till warm, and see if the 45 goes away. while this is going on, don't worry about idle rpm. It will be high. DON'T DRIVE LIKE THIS. If you are lucky you may get a 44 code which would be lean engine and way cool.

you should now have a 12 and a 45 only, unless the vacuum leak you made cleaned things out. At this point you have: EGR bad (?) O2 sensor bad(?) improper vacuum line routing(?) any or all three. Not expensive and not hard to repair.

do this stuff and report back. Don't FIX anything else. DON'T change stuff.
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Unread 09-15-2012, 12:13 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piotrsko
dude, chill out.

look at my post again. you are running rich. these are the reasons why:

EGR valve comes off the manifold and can be cleaned/replaced. yes you can suck on a vacuum line and the stem on the EGR valve should move visibly. If it doesn't is needs cleaning or is bad. a ruptured diaphragm could cause your symptoms and the stem won't move. See brake line test below.

The throttle body itself regulates the pressure back to the tank. Pump going bad would give you less pressure, not more. in my 50 years wrenching on cars I've NEVER seen one have too much pressure. That is why Howell said to blow out the return line. the high fuel pressure symptom was for the people that used their own pump and regulator.

Pull the large vacuum line off the brake booster, reset ECM, run engine for a while till warm, and see if the 45 goes away. while this is going on, don't worry about idle rpm. It will be high. DON'T DRIVE LIKE THIS. If you are lucky you may get a 44 code which would be lean engine and way cool.

you should now have a 12 and a 45 only, unless the vacuum leak you made cleaned things out. At this point you have: EGR bad (?) O2 sensor bad(?) improper vacuum line routing(?) any or all three. Not expensive and not hard to repair.

do this stuff and report back. Don't FIX anything else. DON'T change stuff.
Woah buddy, I'm fine. It's just how I type. I'm not worried about it lol. The vacuum lines are per howells diagram. I just rebuild the lines a piece at a time to make sure it was right. They were old and it needed to be done anyways.

I was also trying to respond to everything you said when I mentioned the fuel pump info I found. I was also unsure of the numbers myself. I also did take the EGR valve off last night and it didn't move when I sucked on it and it took a lot of pressure to push in. I'm not sure how long vacuum is supposed to be applied before it should move. I'm thinking its bad though. Another day, another dollar right? Lol.

I did not check the o2 sensor as I was running out of light and didn't want to ruin anything. I will do what you said tonight because I've got to talk to a women about a horse today. Thanks for your help.

Also, how long should the engine be ran at temp for?
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Unread 09-16-2012, 01:50 AM   #100
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I pulled the vacuum line off and reset the ECM and ran it collectively for over 35 minutes. I pulled codes and I just got 12 over and over.

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Unread 09-16-2012, 09:17 AM   #101
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Good news then: It is running correctly with the vacuum leak....

Your EGR sounds bad, as hard to move means it is crudded up. With EFI, you shouldn't need one, but in the LA APCD you would sometimes fail a visual without it. Not sure what to tell you to do here, clean the inside end, replace the EGR, block it off. FWIW the EGR opens on idle, about 10 inches of vacuum to dilute the incoming fuel charge which is why the Howell goes rich.

12, 12, 12, 12.... means you are in diagnostic mode and don't have any other codes set. 12 is "diagnostic check" mode. Leave the diagnostic jumper in, Start it. rev to 1200/1600 rpm, keep it there till warm (2-3 minutes) which puts you in "run" diagnostic mode. Go back to idle. If the check engine light does not stay on but blinks once slowly every second, you successfully got to closed loop and your O2 works properly and the system is OK. If it blinks kinda fast, you are back to setting codes. If the light blinks really fast or stays on, you are still rich and you have to create a vacuum leak in the crankcase vent system (PCV) . Let me know what it or you did.

If the system is still OK, get a trip permit and drive it for about 30-50 miles to get the prom data updated and the cat cleaned out. about 10 minutes of freeway style and some 30 mph. Maybe one or 2 good smoke dumping romps to clean out the cat converter. On a Ford you need about 5 stop start engine cycles, I am not so sure about GM EFI.

Pull a spark plug after you are cooled off on the 30 mile run and see if it is still white to tan color on the electrode. To us old guys, spark plugs are like data recorders.
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Unread 09-16-2012, 04:47 PM   #102
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I reconnected the vacuum line and ran the engine at 1500RPM with the jumper in for a little over three minutes and let it return to idle. The beginning of the video the motor is at 1000RPM and then when the CEL goes solid for a second or two in the middle, the engine drops to 600RPM. I think the light is blinking at a little over a second intervals but the video is to make sure I'm not screwing it up. For kicks after I shut it off I pulled codes and didn't get any other than 12 so I think I'm all good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqUh7...ature=youtu.be

Also thank you for your help and your honest advice about the EGR valve. If I blocked it off I am sure I will get a fail for tampering with smog equipment in California so I will buy a new one. I didn't quite understand what you said about that in relation to the EFI. Is the howell running rich because the EGR is bad or does an operating EGR cause the howell to run rich? Sorry if that's a stupid question but the more I understand now the more I can help myself later lol.

Would a 25 mile run be okay on the freeway with the rest being city driving? I'm trying to make the best out of the drive as I already have a moving pass for it.
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Unread 09-16-2012, 05:20 PM   #103
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looks good from here, the light on is the O2 sensor transitioning from .2 to.7 and back, so "she's right, mate". Doesn't look like blink blink space blink blink or anything else. I THINK the light on for a second was a write to the table, especially since it didn't set any codes. You ARE allowed to have a periodic miss every 5-20 cycles or more. Plugs look good?

EGR and rich: No, what happens is that the ECM look-up table compensates for the extra vacuum with the EGR valve open and so requests more fuel, hence "rich" condition. If the valve is stuck shut, no extra vacuum, extra fuel = rich. After a while the ECM might learn to lean it out if it doesn't run out of lookup table first. Sometimes they do, sometimes they set a code. Yours set a code.

You need a couple of cool down and heat up cycles, and at least one at say 55 or so for a couple minutes so that when they goose the throttle at the smog place, there is data in the look up correction table for full throttle and you don't get failed again. You also need at least one at part throttle (35 ish) Same reason, one at idle too. then you need a couple of start / cool down stops to clear the DTC s that may still be in memory. Up here in Reno, we go 25 mile up to Lake Tahoe, cruise around the lake, eat lunch, then if no codes are set, take it right away to the smog place. How you do it is up to you. I would run it a bunch, because by now you may have crudded up the cat converter and need to warm it up enough to make it happy again. I have smogged and passed with an empty cat shell in LA but that was a long time ago.

good luck, keep us posted. OH yeah, pull the diagnostic jumper before driving it.

Last edited by piotrsko; 09-16-2012 at 05:23 PM.. Reason: D' OH
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Unread 09-16-2012, 06:15 PM   #104
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That's good to hear. I will definitely pull the jumper before driving it. The last time I looked at the plugs they were alright, they are only a few weeks old(i did a tune up after I failed the first time) but I can check again before I drive it if you'd like. I understand, a working EGR will help prevent rich conditions.

I'm having trouble understanding your driving advice, would you mind explaining the cool down and heat up cycles as well as the start / cool down stops so I can understand it better. My own fault, not the way you're describing it. Would driving with the bad EGR valve for a half and hour each way cause rich conditions and start this all over or should I wait until I replace that to drive it around?
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Unread 09-17-2012, 01:51 PM   #105
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Ok: all my references say start /cool down. I ''ll say start run to warm,stop, turn off restart. Nothing happens in the ECM until you get to closed loop or about 160 degrees in the coolant. I suppose that there is no reason to do a full cool down, never thought about it. You would need about 5 minute off to go below 160 . Off then restart should be ok. you would be at temp then go into closed loop.

If the egr is not setting codes, you might have gotten lean enough to pass at idle. I am not sure how to advise you here. Depends if you can afford a "fail" again. Your call here. For me if it is not setting codes it should be smog passable, but my current smog rules are easier than yours.
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