Failed Smog, again. High HC at Idle. - Page 4 - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > Models > Jeep Wrangler Forums > YJ Wrangler Technical Forum > Failed Smog, again. High HC at Idle.

FS: Wranger BRIGHT License Plate LED! Just $3! Great valueRockridge 4WD IS Taking Zone Offroad Suspension Lift Kits Rough Country Jeep Suspension Deals at Rockridge 4WD!

Reply
Unread 08-18-2012, 09:06 PM   #46
Michaelgoesrawr
Web Wheeler
 
Michaelgoesrawr's Avatar
1988 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 6,783
I am 98% confident that the balancer is good. It's at 0 and the #1 piston is as high as it can go relative to the little bit of play in the rotation(why I'm not 100% sure). Lol

__________________
Adopt your pets. Don't shop for them.
Michaelgoesrawr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-20-2012, 05:42 PM   #47
plym49
Registered User
1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NA
Posts: 1,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelgoesrawr View Post
I am 98% confident that the balancer is good. It's at 0 and the #1 piston is as high as it can go relative to the little bit of play in the rotation(why I'm not 100% sure). Lol
That's good news, now get that distributor in there right and set the timing to spec.
plym49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2012, 12:40 AM   #48
Michaelgoesrawr
Web Wheeler
 
Michaelgoesrawr's Avatar
1988 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 6,783
So I need to move it so the vac advance is farther swag from the block. Pointing more towards the alternator? And that should give me the amount of adjustment I need, correct?
__________________
Adopt your pets. Don't shop for them.
Michaelgoesrawr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2012, 01:01 AM   #49
Michaelgoesrawr
Web Wheeler
 
Michaelgoesrawr's Avatar
1988 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 6,783
Also since I have the new distributor should I put that in since I have to screw with it anyhow?
__________________
Adopt your pets. Don't shop for them.
Michaelgoesrawr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2012, 04:16 PM   #50
Michaelgoesrawr
Web Wheeler
 
Michaelgoesrawr's Avatar
1988 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 6,783
I tried to put the distributor in again and it wouldn't start so I switched the plug wires on the cap like you said and it turned over and made a pop sound. I have very little patience and am ready to torch this damn thing lol
__________________
Adopt your pets. Don't shop for them.
Michaelgoesrawr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2012, 04:35 PM   #51
Michaelgoesrawr
Web Wheeler
 
Michaelgoesrawr's Avatar
1988 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 6,783
Tried it again and now it'll start but barely run lol. I'm getting there I guess. Ha
__________________
Adopt your pets. Don't shop for them.
Michaelgoesrawr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2012, 04:58 PM   #52
plym49
Registered User
1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NA
Posts: 1,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelgoesrawr View Post
Tried it again and now it'll start but barely run lol. I'm getting there I guess. Ha
You are either way retarded or way advanced. Try advancing it first. If that make it run worse or backfire, go the other way.
plym49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2012, 05:23 PM   #53
Michaelgoesrawr
Web Wheeler
 
Michaelgoesrawr's Avatar
1988 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 6,783
Well I got it back to where it was before. I moved the rotor counter clockwise the first time instead of clockwise. The erratic timing light makes it really hard to get an accurate reading. Just because of that I'm considering putting in the new one. Except I will have to splice wires because of the different icm I have on this motor because of the Howell kit. Aside from that, diving into a new dist doesn't seem that hard considering I've screwed with it so much today. Lol.
__________________
Adopt your pets. Don't shop for them.
Michaelgoesrawr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2012, 05:26 PM   #54
Michaelgoesrawr
Web Wheeler
 
Michaelgoesrawr's Avatar
1988 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 6,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by plym49

You are either way retarded or way advanced. Try advancing it first. If that make it run worse or backfire, go the other way.
Sorry I didn't see this. The vac advance was hitting the block and it still would barely run. That's my fault though as I explained above.

Now retarding the timing would mean you move the vac advance away from the block correct? Because it runs worse when I do that. And it runs better/faster when I move it towards the block, which I think is advancing it.
__________________
Adopt your pets. Don't shop for them.
Michaelgoesrawr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2012, 06:36 PM   #55
plym49
Registered User
1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NA
Posts: 1,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelgoesrawr View Post
Sorry I didn't see this. The vac advance was hitting the block and it still would barely run. That's my fault though as I explained above.

Now retarding the timing would mean you move the vac advance away from the block correct? Because it runs worse when I do that. And it rubs better/faster when I move it towards the block, which I think is advancing it.
Think of it this way: the vacuum advance pulls to advance the timing. Therefore, rotating the dizzy in the direction of the vacuum advance will advance the timing. Running better/faster is an indication of the timing getting advanced. Go too far, though, and the motor will buck and ping.

When you remove the dizzy, hold the housing and the rotor shaft will rotate a bit because of the spiral teeth in the gears.

When you reinstall, again hold the body and rotate the rotor shaft a bit so that the teeth mesh and it lines up with the drive to the oil pump. But hold the body in a better spot so that the advance wiull no longer hit the block.

Hard to describe; I wish I was there to show you.
plym49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2012, 07:05 PM   #56
Michaelgoesrawr
Web Wheeler
 
Michaelgoesrawr's Avatar
1988 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 6,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by plym49

Think of it this way: the vacuum advance pulls to advance the timing. Therefore, rotating the dizzy in the direction of the vacuum advance will advance the timing. Running better/faster is an indication of the timing getting advanced. Go too far, though, and the motor will buck and ping.

When you remove the dizzy, hold the housing and the rotor shaft will rotate a bit because of the spiral teeth in the gears.

When you reinstall, again hold the body and rotate the rotor shaft a bit so that the teeth mesh and it lines up with the drive to the oil pump. But hold the body in a better spot so that the advance wiull no longer hit the block.

Hard to describe; I wish I was there to show you.
You and me both bud! Haha. I see the rotor spin when I pull the housing out. I was understanding that in order to move the advance away from the block the same relationship between the rotor and cylinder needs to be kept. Which is why I was rotating the rotor shaft clockwise in order to keep the same relationship so I didn't retard the timing.

I think that theory is at least half correct because the first time I did it I rotated the rotor shaft counter clockwise and the thing wouldn't start. As it sits right now I think I need to do it all again because the vac advance is still hitting the block and it seems to not have enough advance at idle. It'll run and drive fine but it hesitates a bit until I give it throttle and the rpms increase.
__________________
Adopt your pets. Don't shop for them.
Michaelgoesrawr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2012, 08:45 PM   #57
plym49
Registered User
1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NA
Posts: 1,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelgoesrawr View Post
You and me both bud! Haha. I see the rotor spin when I pull the housing out. I was understanding that in order to move the advance away from the block the same relationship between the rotor and cylinder needs to be kept. Which is why I was rotating the rotor shaft clockwise in order to keep the same relationship so I didn't retard the timing.

I think that theory is at least half correct because the first time I did it I rotated the rotor shaft counter clockwise and the thing wouldn't start. As it sits right now I think I need to do it all again because the vac advance is still hitting the block and it seems to not have enough advance at idle. It'll run and drive fine but it hesitates a bit until I give it throttle and the rpms increase.
OK, so as you pull the dizzy out the rotor turns a bit because of the fact that the gears are spiral cut. Let's pretend that before you started to remove the dizzy, the rotor was at 12 o'clock. Now, pretend that as you remove the dizzy that the rotor ends up pointing at 2 o'clock (I don't recall if the rotor precesses clockwise or counterclockwise when you remove the distributor, if it goes the other way then pretend it ended up at 10 o'clock).

So, when you reinstall the dizzy, you want to have the rotor at 2 o'clock (or 10 o'clock). This is so that the dizzy gear engages the cam and also the tang at the bottom aligns with the oil pump (which is either one way, or 180 degrees the other way).

Now, hold the body of the dizzy so that you have plenty of swing one way or the other, without the advance hitting the block or anything else. Rotate the rotor to 2 o'clock (or 10 o'clock)(again, this is for the example where you started off at the 12 o'clock position - for any other place, you are compensating - the approximate 2-hour offset - so that after the gear engages and it spins back into place, the rotor shaft is where it was before).

If you did it right, the dizzy will fully seat as the rotor arms rotates as it grabs the gear. The last bit of movement is as the tang engages on the oil pump. If you are off, you will not engage the tang.

If it did not work, take it out and try again, offseting the rotor shaft a little more or a little less until it all seats home.

Then, make sure that you know which post was #1, and plug in your wires.

I hope that made sense. If not, let me know and I will try to clear it up.
plym49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-22-2012, 12:06 AM   #58
Michaelgoesrawr
Web Wheeler
 
Michaelgoesrawr's Avatar
1988 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 6,783
The process of what to do makes sense but not the mechanics behind it. Might be because its late but I feel like that's the same this as changing the timing if the rotor shaft is going into the same place. Clearly it's not but I can't grasp why it works.


Ahhh. Got it. It's because when the rotor shaft is engaged moving it advances the timing but with it out the unit moves freely together and it just gets rotated however many degrees away from the block. I'll do that tomorrow. Do you have any tricks to set the timing with a faulty flash? Even with it changed spot the light is still highly erratic.

Edit: Would I then rotate the engine to 0 degrees and figure out which post is number one or just go from the originally number one on the cap?
__________________
Adopt your pets. Don't shop for them.
Michaelgoesrawr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-22-2012, 05:31 PM   #59
plym49
Registered User
1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NA
Posts: 1,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelgoesrawr View Post
The process of what to do makes sense but not the mechanics behind it. Might be because its late but I feel like that's the same this as changing the timing if the rotor shaft is going into the same place. Clearly it's not but I can't grasp why it works.


Ahhh. Got it. It's because when the rotor shaft is engaged moving it advances the timing but with it out the unit moves freely together and it just gets rotated however many degrees away from the block. I'll do that tomorrow. Do you have any tricks to set the timing with a faulty flash? Even with it changed spot the light is still highly erratic.

Edit: Would I then rotate the engine to 0 degrees and figure out which post is number one or just go from the originally number one on the cap?
OK, you might have it, I am not sure. So think of it this way:

The rotor does not have anything to do with the timing EXCEPT for the initial static timing - you want to have the rotor pointing to a cap terminal (any one of them) when the motor has the #1 cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke. With the motor off!

That is it - the rotor has nothing else to do with timing - how could it, when it is moving in a circle?

You get your firing order correct by wiring the spark plug wires, in the direction of rotor rotation, according to the firing order: 1 5 3 6 2 4. This just gets the electricity to the correct spark plug according to the firing order.

We are still not at timing.

OK, here goes: When the rotor is rotating, something else is happening as well. The points (older motors) or switching module is switching 12 volts to the coil, mechanically synchronized with the rotor. Think of this low-voltage (low tension) circuit as a switch that opens and closes in time with the rotor pointing to a cap terminal. When the switch closes, it energizes the primary winding of the coil, making a magnetic field. When the switch opens, that magnetic field collapses. A collapsing magnetic field is a moving magmetic field, and a moving magnetic field generates electricity. The electricity generated in this case is the secondary winding in side the coil. Now, the number of turns of wire of each the primary and secondary coils is carefully selected such that a very high voltage is generated by the secondary coil. Your puny 12 volts (at a higher current) becomes 15,000 volts or more (at a very tiny current). This is where the high voltage comes from to fire your spark plugs.

This high voltage electricity comes out the center terminal of your coil, goes through the coil wire, into the center terminal of the cap, and then to the center post of the rotor. Next, it wants to go through the rotor and eventually end up at a spark plug.

How does it do this? Well, the electricity wants to take the path of least resistance, so it jumps from the tip of the rotor to the closest terminal inside the cap. Which terminal should be closest? Why, the one that corresponds to the correct spark plug at that point in time.

OK, bear with me, we are almost at the timing.

If the rotor tip is perfectly opposite a cap terminal when the coil fires, then the motor is at 0 degrees timing. If you rotate the DISTRIBUTOR BODY opposite the direction of rotor rotation, the tip of the rotor is energized a few degrees BEFORE it gets perfectly opposite the tip. This is the advance! The electricity has a tiny bit farther of a gap to jump, but that little bit does not matter. Rotate the DISTRIBUTOR BODY with the direction of rotor rotation, and you retard the timing.

It is all very simple when you think about everything that is going on. It really is, though, an elegant system.

Therefore, putting the distributor shaft right where it was before (in a way that can engage the oil pump drive) has no effect on the timing. It is a rotating shaft, remember? The timing comes from where the distributor body and, hence the cap terminals, are located with respect to the rotor tip each time the coil sends the high voltage down the pike.

That is why removing your dizzy and rotating the dizzy body to a better place, while keeping the rotor shaft in the same place, can help you solve your problem.

In terms of how to set the timing without a timing light, here is the way that it is done to maximize engine performance: Start with the timing set as close to zero (static timing, as above) as you can. Start the motor. Advance the timing until it runs better. Advance it more. Runs even better. Rotate it more. Uh oh, motor starts to break up. OK, go back until it runs OK again.

Now drive the vehicle. Get into a high load/low rpm situation, for example by driving up a hill at WOT in too high a gear. The motor should ping. If not, you are there. If it does, retard the timing a mite and try again.

You are done when extreme low rpm/high load situations produce a tiny bit of ping. This is the most timing the motor can handle. The reason you accept a little bit of ping at the end is that you normally do not lug the motor like that (at least, I hope not).

With an automatic, it is even easier. Put the motor in drive, stand on the brakes and give WOT. When the motor very slightly pings when doing this, the timing is as advanced as it can get.

Note that these techniques do not get the timing to what the label on the fender says. It sets the timing for maximum power and efficiency.

No, it is not as accurate as using a timing light, and there are a lot of things you can do with a timing light that you cannot do by ear, but you asked.
plym49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-22-2012, 05:37 PM   #60
plym49
Registered User
1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NA
Posts: 1,524
Just saw your edit.

You MUST find which cap terminal is now #1. If it is the same as it was before, then you did not rotate the distributor body with respect to where it was when the advance was hitting the block. You might be one, two or three terminals away from where you were, depending on where you end up with the distributor body.
plym49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
4.2 , failed smog
Thread Tools


Suggested Threads





Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.