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Unread 01-13-2014, 07:29 AM   #16
fishadventure
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Just for the sake of discussion because I have always found not being electronics-dependent interesting.
A number of people I know and I talked a lot about it around the Y2K debacle.

So basically the Ford Ignition Module from the middle seventies is also vulnerable? That leaves nothing but points to be EOTWAWKI 'compliant'? Hmmm.
And so basically an alternator is also not dependable, but a generator with a mechanical regulator would be?

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Unread 01-13-2014, 07:55 AM   #17
Que89YJ
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There are 2 components to electromagnetics;e field(RF) and h field(magnetic). The standard emp field kill most people think of is a mobile transmitter that is keyed on to confuse a computer. That is an efield kill using rf. H field is a whole different issue. It takes a lot of energy to generate H field and the distances are very short. H field travels through almost any surface including metal and h field coupling on any electrical circuit is easy and significant power can be generated. The basic idea that a transformer works on is a good example. If a significant h field is generated the power will travel through the circuit it is intoduced on. If the circuit is exposed and operating it will see the power through the operating path of the circuit and too much power will cause failure. Even with the circuit off a H field event has enough potential to cause the circuit its introduced on to fail. You are just minimizing the effect by turning it off.

No, anything with wiring including the ignition sytem will have an issue with an H field event. Some of the crazy stuff the government has played with like the HARP are ionispheric "heaters" that generate a significant emp pulse that would readily disable any electronics.

If it has wires it will be effected in the h field. E field is almost impossible to be effective in all vehicles at all frequiencies because it is easy to shield for and the frquecies the computers run on is such a wide range that no one freq. would be effective on all computers.
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Unread 01-13-2014, 04:42 PM   #18
fishadventure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Que89YJ View Post
...If a significant h field is generated the power will travel through the circuit it is intoduced on. If the circuit is exposed and operating it will see the power through the operating path of the circuit and too much power will cause failure. Even with the circuit off a H field event has enough potential to cause the circuit its introduced on to fail. You are just minimizing the effect by turning it off.
No, anything with wiring including the ignition sytem will have an issue with an H field event. Some of the crazy stuff the government has played with like the HARP are ionispheric "heaters" that generate a significant emp pulse that would readily disable any electronics...
So for clarity: I was under the impression that electronics that were primitive would survive an EMP event to be operable after the cessation of the event, albeit they would not function during the event. i.e. an old transistor radio, CB, tube-based ham radio. And 70s era ECMs, etc.

In other words, what it appears that you are meaning when you said, "If the circuit is exposed and operating it will see the power through the operating path of the circuit" is that even basic wiring 'circuits' will fail during an EMP event and that failure will be full and complete- not a temporary disabling kind of failure... So even an old points-running aircooled VW is not a good plan for an EOTWAWKI bug-out rig in that case!
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Unread 01-13-2014, 05:50 PM   #19
jeepguy85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Que89YJ View Post
There are 2 components to electromagnetics;e field(RF) and h field(magnetic). The standard emp field kill most people think of is a mobile transmitter that is keyed on to confuse a computer. That is an efield kill using rf. H field is a whole different issue. It takes a lot of energy to generate H field and the distances are very short. H field travels through almost any surface including metal and h field coupling on any electrical circuit is easy and significant power can be generated. The basic idea that a transformer works on is a good example. If a significant h field is generated the power will travel through the circuit it is intoduced on. If the circuit is exposed and operating it will see the power through the operating path of the circuit and too much power will cause failure. Even with the circuit off a H field event has enough potential to cause the circuit its introduced on to fail. You are just minimizing the effect by turning it off.

No, anything with wiring including the ignition sytem will have an issue with an H field event. Some of the crazy stuff the government has played with like the HARP are ionispheric "heaters" that generate a significant emp pulse that would readily disable any electronics.

If it has wires it will be effected in the h field. E field is almost impossible to be effective in all vehicles at all frequiencies because it is easy to shield for and the frquecies the computers run on is such a wide range that no one freq. would be effective on all computers.
Que, sounds like you sir hold the good ole EE. Am I correct?
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Unread 01-13-2014, 06:27 PM   #20
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EMP proof!

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Unread 01-13-2014, 06:44 PM   #21
Que89YJ
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I have been doing electromagnetics in form form or another for almost 30 years. Started in the submarines in the military, a few couple years of college, and a lot of OJT doing emc EMC tech at Chrysler for 23 years. People generally have no idea what kind of testing we do for emc.
This is a link to the test lab web site where I work.
http://www.chryslertestservices.com/...ries-list.html


I made sure to qualify the circuits being effected by the h field and being damaged. The h field is very severe but very hard to generate. It takes a huge amount of power to generate that type of field. If you see that type of field there are going to be way bigger things to worry about then the engine starting! The diesel would be your best bet. The military does design systems to withstand the high fields I am talking about but Mu metal to do that kind of shielding and the shielding is truly expensive and prohibitive.
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Unread 01-13-2014, 08:29 PM   #22
plym49
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Don't overthink this. Get a pre-ECU carb and a points distributor. I did. Done and done.
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Unread 01-13-2014, 08:51 PM   #23
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So, what I'm gathering is that if a h field hits us, nothing will work. But, if we have the vehicle turned off we will still be able to run it after the h field emp? Let's say you are running your vehicle and the h field hits. It fries everything. Wouldn't then the vehicle be salvageable if you stored extra parts in a faraday cage and then installed those parts after the emp hit? And, if that is true, wouldn't it be safer to have an older vehicle so that less of it was fried and it is easier to fix?
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Unread 01-13-2014, 09:13 PM   #24
Que89YJ
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Yes. Exactly.
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Unread 01-14-2014, 12:47 AM   #25
Moondog21_2
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Good Lord. I thought I wandered off jeep forum for a minute.
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Unread 01-15-2014, 07:57 AM   #26
vadslram
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Originally Posted by xeon View Post
Yup all YJs have computers. Most CJs have computers too. Its got to be mad old...

I would not be worried. Because if you go down most everyone around you will too and your cell phone and stuff...
Mine doesn't
It's in a box in the garage attic.
Put a plain jane MC2150 and an HEI unit and your about as apocalypse ready as you can be. Unless you want to be really prepped for doomsday, then you need to turn your garage into a farraday cage.
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Unread 01-15-2014, 10:26 AM   #27
superj
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my 76 cj5 has all old school parts with no ecu or any type of computer. points distributor and all on its 4.2
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Unread 01-15-2014, 05:17 PM   #28
Bip
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my 76 cj5 has all old school parts with no ecu or any type of computer. points distributor and all on its 4.2
That's good to hear because ours is a 1976 CJ5, 4.2 also and all original.
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Unread 01-15-2014, 09:07 PM   #29
plym49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bip View Post
So, what I'm gathering is that if a h field hits us, nothing will work. But, if we have the vehicle turned off we will still be able to run it after the h field emp? Let's say you are running your vehicle and the h field hits. It fries everything. Wouldn't then the vehicle be salvageable if you stored extra parts in a faraday cage and then installed those parts after the emp hit? And, if that is true, wouldn't it be safer to have an older vehicle so that less of it was fried and it is easier to fix?
Not necessarily. A device with chips can be harmed even if it is powered off. It depends on the chips/circuit board and the strength of the pulse.

Remember, chip'd devices are running code - computer programs - on very low power circuits. An induced voltage can physically harm a chip just as a bit or two can flip from 'on' to 'off', or vice versa. Mess up one checksum and whatever it is will not work. Do that on the right (wrong) type of chip and the unit might not come back after a reset.
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Unread 01-15-2014, 09:08 PM   #30
plym49
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Originally Posted by roadyrob View Post
some scientists believe that a vehicle made of steel and sitting on tires acts as a faraday cage so they will operate ,others claim batteries, diodes, coils, etc. will also be bad so possibly something old and diesel powered will work, like a antique farm tractor that will be able to drive around the disabled vehicles.
No scientists would say any such thing, for example lumping batteries and coils with solid-state devices.

If you think I am mistaken, please cite the scientific papers that support your statement along with the credentials of the authors and the results of a peer review.
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