Any cryogenic experts? - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > Models > Jeep Wrangler Forums > YJ Wrangler Technical Forum > Any cryogenic experts?

TJ 5.25" Speaker Adapters - NalinMFGTJ, YJ & LJ Drop Down Tail Gate Conversion KitLJ Suspension Systems from Clayton Off Road

Reply
Unread 02-16-2012, 08:26 AM   #1
firefighter315
I got a brain sneeze....
 
firefighter315's Avatar
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,828
Any cryogenic experts?

I know the discussion of cryogenic treatment of gear sets, axle shafts, etc. is not a new one in the offroad or motorsports community. Everything I've read speaks to the benefits of this relatively inexpensive treatment option, but I've not heard of any negatives. I've read of as much as 200% improvement in wear sensitivity and, while not as great as 200%, a recognizable increase in tensile strength.

My question is, ARE there any negative issues with cryogenic treatments for what we use our stuff for in the offroad world? Also, has anyone ever seen any dimensional changes after cryo treatments? I know absolutely wearing out a R&P is not really even a remote occurrence, but I can't help but think increasing wear resistance is a good thing. Are the gains in tensile strength great enough to make it worthwhile to send them off for treatment and is "deep" cryogenic treatment required to gain this benefit?

Any input is appreciated!

Erik

__________________
My YJ Build Thread http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/f...hread-1181000/
firefighter315 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-16-2012, 10:01 AM   #2
jsawduste
Web Wheeler
2006 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,947
A good conversation to have with Bobby at Longfield. He has been cryo`ing for quite some time.
http://www.longfieldsuperaxles.com/

He can answer your in depth questions and provide some real world examples. Toyota 8.xx comes top mind as one of his success stories.
jsawduste is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-16-2012, 10:49 AM   #3
firefighter315
I got a brain sneeze....
 
firefighter315's Avatar
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,828
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsawduste View Post
Thanks for the link! I know they are crazy questions, but I tend to research the crap out of everything before I do it. Even if I decide this is a good investment, it will still be a way down the road. I am in desperate need of a re-gear/lock/shaft upgrade etc. and want to consider all the options to do it right the first time. Mucho $$$ when it comes to my toy budget!

Hopefully some others will stumble in here that have researched this a bit more than me or have done it themselves.
__________________
My YJ Build Thread http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/f...hread-1181000/
firefighter315 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-16-2012, 11:26 AM   #4
oldtime_ironman
Web Wheeler
1991 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: 14304 Niagara Falls, NY
Posts: 2,540
Whether you will see any benefit from it depends on the type or grade of steel used. For the same money spent, I usually recommend chrome-moly instead such as 4340 or H-11 tool steel. It also depends on the specific treatment after quenching and temperatures involved.

Cryo does work, depending on all the factors involved, but I question whether most of us need it. Sure if you're racing with components that are at their material limits. But most of us aren't doing that. Certainly Aircraft can use cryo treatment - that's how the keep the ball bearings from seizing up in jet engines. But we're not doing that either.

Most often cryo is used to stabilize the dimensions of critical parts and gauges. I mean the kind of thing where a hundred-thousandth of an inch makes a difference. If you want toughness and wear resistance there are easier ways to achieve that, mainly by choosing a more expensive grade of steel and having it heat-treated properly.

-Just a guy who spent the last ~20 yrs in the steel fabrication biz.
.
oldtime_ironman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-17-2012, 09:48 AM   #5
firefighter315
I got a brain sneeze....
 
firefighter315's Avatar
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,828
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtime_ironman View Post
Whether you will see any benefit from it depends on the type or grade of steel used. For the same money spent, I usually recommend chrome-moly instead such as 4340 or H-11 tool steel. It also depends on the specific treatment after quenching and temperatures involved.

If you want toughness and wear resistance there are easier ways to achieve that, mainly by choosing a more expensive grade of steel and having it heat-treated properly.
Thanks for the information Ironman. While I've never been set on having components cryo'd, I have just been thinking that with it being relatively cheap, and IF there are significant gains in tensile strength to go along with the drastic improvement in wear resistance, then why not? However, on the side of reservation, I've thought as you mentioned above, even if there is that great a gain, is it necessary. As far as steel grades, I will purchase chrome-moly shafts regardless if I plan to have them cryo'd or not. Is this in any way detrimental to the higher grades? What type of heat treatment are you mentioning and in what ways is it easier to achieve? Is it the same as heating and quenching hand tools in oil? Thanks again for your input!
__________________
My YJ Build Thread http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/f...hread-1181000/
firefighter315 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-17-2012, 04:20 PM   #6
oldtime_ironman
Web Wheeler
1991 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: 14304 Niagara Falls, NY
Posts: 2,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by firefighter315 View Post
Thanks for the information Ironman. While I've never been set on having components cryo'd, I have just been thinking that with it being relatively cheap, and IF there are significant gains in tensile strength to go along with the drastic improvement in wear resistance, then why not? However, on the side of reservation, I've thought as you mentioned above, even if there is that great a gain, is it necessary. As far as steel grades, I will purchase chrome-moly shafts regardless if I plan to have them cryo'd or not. Is this in any way detrimental to the higher grades? What type of heat treatment are you mentioning and in what ways is it easier to achieve? Is it the same as heating and quenching hand tools in oil? Thanks again for your input!
Hrmmm, maybe I should clarify or re-word it a bit better.

Most of the time you won't see significant changes to tensile strength, say greater than 10%. The tensile is usually determined by the initial quench and temper. What a cryo treatment does is stabilize and "lock in" the characteristics of the steel. Essentially its an artificial aging treatment, which is what we want. Since the higher the alloy, the longer a time it takes for a treatment to work its way all the way thru the piece.

Cryo certainly does not hurt anything. It may refine the grain structure a bit, and it will certainly stabilize the dimentions - check the bearing areas. I do question the need for it in the case of jeeps tho. We simply don't push our machines that hard enough to justify the expense.

The conventional heat treat is a bit more complex nowdays compared to making hand tools. Nowdays they use atmosphere-controlled furnaces (inert gas such as argon) with IR thermometers. High-alloy steels often don't need an oil or water quench - just pulling it out of the furnace and letting it cool in the air is enough. The manufacturers usually supply curves with the temperatures for various tempers.

If you really want to get the low-down on all this, go to a college library and get a copy of "Machinery's Handbook". I bought mine about 20 yrs ago, its about 3000 pages on bible paper. They have a whole thing on different steels and heat treatments. Its the standard manual reference book for machine shops and hard-core welders. I've practically memorized a few parts of it, but then again it was part of my job for a long time to give maintenance advice to the bosses at the plant and then do the repairs.
oldtime_ironman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-17-2012, 05:46 PM   #7
Peter Nuss
Registered User
1987 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 222
I had a bunch done recently on another project. It cost me $6 a pound. So, cost add up fast. People seem to really think it great or don't see much use in it. I never met anyone in the middle of this issue. I like the fact you can take a completely assembled transmission in to get cryoed instead of all the parts. That just seems too weird to me.
Peter Nuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-17-2012, 07:51 PM   #8
firefighter315
I got a brain sneeze....
 
firefighter315's Avatar
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,828
Thanks again Ironman for your time in trying to straighten it out in my head. I apologize for sounding like I'm all over the place with my questions. I quickly approaching my 4th decade of being one of those people who wants to understand every angle about anything I take an interest in or don't fully grasp. Obviously, my reading for a while has only served to create more questions in my head. I'll research more the old fashioned way and maybe go find that book.

Peter, I didn't know intact things like a tranny could be treated fully assembled either.....crazy.

Thanks again guys!
__________________
My YJ Build Thread http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/f...hread-1181000/
firefighter315 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-17-2012, 08:23 PM   #9
oldtime_ironman
Web Wheeler
1991 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: 14304 Niagara Falls, NY
Posts: 2,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by firefighter315 View Post
Thanks again Ironman for your time in trying to straighten it out in my head. I apologize for sounding like I'm all over the place with my questions. I quickly approaching my 4th decade of being one of those people who wants to understand every angle about anything I take an interest in or don't fully grasp. Obviously, my reading for a while has only served to create more questions in my head. I'll research more the old fashioned way and maybe go find that book.

Peter, I didn't know intact things like a tranny could be treated fully assembled either.....crazy.

Thanks again guys!
No need to apologize - I'm the same way!

FWIW cryo is usually used to make gauges such as micrometers, and also to make ball bearings for stuff like NASA. It isn't used so much for the temper effects, its used to make things really stable and fine-grained. It "closes up" the grain of the steel kinda like aftershave LOL
.
oldtime_ironman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-20-2012, 10:51 AM   #10
warbird
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Antioch, il
Posts: 2
I think I qualify as an expert. I have 20 years experience with the cryo process, have taught the ASM course on the subject, (ASM is the metallurgist's professional society) am a founding member and chair of the ASM committee on the subject, co-hosted the ASM webinar along with Rozalia Papp of Air Liquide and James Fessmire of NASA. I also work closely with the Cryogenic Society of America and helped start their database of research articles on the subject. Be aware that I do run a cryo treating company.

To answer the original questions:
There can be negative aspects if the process is not done correctly, just like any process. The real cryogenic process involves a slow cool down, a hold at temperature, a slow warm up and a tempering cycle afterward. There are people out there who will dip your part in liquid nitrogen, which causes all sorts of problems. To cure this problem, get the process done by a reputable source.

Dimensional changes. Yes, parts can grow. One result of cryo is that retained austenite in the part is changed to martensite. The martensite crystal structure is 4% larger than the retained austenite. Growth of the part indicates that it was not heat treated correctly. Also, such a part will grow in use as heat cycling and stress and vibration will cause the austenite to convert to martensite anyway, and without the benefit of the tempering cycle afterward, meaning the martensite will be brittle. We have only rarely seen growth problems. One was in a gear for an out drive on a boat, but the life factor went from about 30 hours to over 240. (It hasn't worn out yet.)

The gains in tensile strength will not be substantial, but the ability of the parts to withstand heavy loads after cryo will increase. This was proven in a study by the Illinois Institute of Technology Research Institute for the US Army Aviation and Missile Command. We do ring and pinion gears for drag racing, tractor pulls, and circle track racing and give customers about three times the life.

I agree with Ironman to the extent that a good grade of steel and a good heat treat is key to a making a good component. Even then, specifying a clean steel is necessary, as cheap chrome moly or H11 can have great variability and large inclusions. Also the machining the part correctly to keep residual stresses to a minimum is mandatory. I disagree in that what he calls cryo to stabilize size is usually cold treatment which is much different than cryogenic treatment.

Peter, $6/pound is pretty high. Also, there are problems involved with doing assembled mechanisms such as engines and transmissions due to the different contraction rates of various components. I've done assemblies at the insistence of the owners, but they must be checked carefully afterwards.

If you have any specific questions feel free to ask. One place Jeep owners will really benefit is the use of cryo treated brake rotors. It will reduce the tendency to warp and increase the wear resistance considerably.
warbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-20-2012, 11:40 AM   #11
firefighter315
I got a brain sneeze....
 
firefighter315's Avatar
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,828
Quote:
Originally Posted by warbird View Post
I think I qualify as an expert. I have 20 years experience with the cryo process, have taught the ASM course on the subject, (ASM is the metallurgist's professional society) am a founding member and chair of the ASM committee on the subject, co-hosted the ASM webinar along with Rozalia Papp of Air Liquide and James Fessmire of NASA. I also work closely with the Cryogenic Society of America and helped start their database of research articles on the subject. Be aware that I do run a cryo treating company.
Thanks Warbird! This supports the conclusion that you just never know who or what information you can find by posting a question in JF! This is great information/experience to add. At the risk of sounding like a moron, I haven't even been considering brake rotors as a possible candidate for treatment - I'd say they'd be the ideal component for any treatment that increases wear resistance!
__________________
My YJ Build Thread http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/f...hread-1181000/
firefighter315 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-20-2012, 12:07 PM   #12
fratis
......
 
fratis's Avatar
1991 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Hale'iwa, Hawai'i
Posts: 4,809
excellent info oldtime and warbird...

hey warbird do you have any company info? can we send brake rotors to you? in my sprinter van at 38k miles i wore completely through a set to the point of breaking the rotor itself away from the rotor hats.
__________________
-insert meaningless out-of-place political diatribe-
fratis is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-20-2012, 01:03 PM   #13
Louie4
Powah Injanir
 
Louie4's Avatar
1993 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 9,744
Good info indeed. I'm definitely more enlightened. I've read a few threads on the subject but this one has been the most thorough and to the point.
__________________
Lou

I have a jeep...and it is modified...I win.

YJOTM July 2012
YJOTM February 2014

Louie4's YJ Build
Poison Spyder Fender Install
Warn M8000 Rebuild Adventure
University of Georgia
Louie4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-20-2012, 02:57 PM   #14
warbird
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Antioch, il
Posts: 2
Thank you fellows for your enthusiasm. You can see my company information at www.metal-wear.com. If you want rotors and/pads, I can probably get them from my suppliers and treat them for you. That will save you a lot of shipping back and forth, and I get a pretty good price from them, so that should also save you some. Just give me a call, the company phone number is on our website.
warbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-20-2012, 09:31 PM   #15
firefighter315
I got a brain sneeze....
 
firefighter315's Avatar
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,828
Thanks for the link Warbird! I'll see what I can do about sending some business your way, myself being a fairly good certainty.

I'm glad to see some others were able to get some good info in this thread. Judging by the traffic, I thought maybe there weren't many others that had much interest in this topic.
__________________
My YJ Build Thread http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/f...hread-1181000/
firefighter315 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Thread Tools


Suggested Threads





Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.