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Unread 07-30-2011, 06:38 PM   #16
plym49
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1990 YJ Wrangler 
 
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A collapsed lifter can not bend a pushrod or hurt a rocker arm. Think about it. The pushrod is LOOSE. Now, if you had solid lifters and adjusted them too tight, then that is the sort of thing that could bend a pushrod. Not your situation. Just take a step back and think it through. The only reason one or two lifters got noisy is because some old gasket got down the oil drain holes. They gunk was small enough to pass through the system but big enough to get caught in the tiniest oild passag in your motor - the lifters.

Someone recommended Seafoam in the fuel system and I do not understand how your fuel system can fix a plugged lifter. LOL. Maybe I misunderstood.

Use the Seafoam or ATF or MMO in your oil. Do not put your motor under load - no hot rodding or pulling trailers or racing up hill - until you get a press charge or 'real' oil in the thing.

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Unread 07-30-2011, 07:37 PM   #17
ApocalypseJeep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plym49 View Post
A collapsed lifter can not bend a pushrod or hurt a rocker arm. Think about it. The pushrod is LOOSE. Now, if you had solid lifters and adjusted them too tight, then that is the sort of thing that could bend a pushrod. Not your situation. Just take a step back and think it through. The only reason one or two lifters got noisy is because some old gasket got down the oil drain holes. They gunk was small enough to pass through the system but big enough to get caught in the tiniest oild passag in your motor - the lifters.

Someone recommended Seafoam in the fuel system and I do not understand how your fuel system can fix a plugged lifter. LOL. Maybe I misunderstood.

Use the Seafoam or ATF or MMO in your oil. Do not put your motor under load - no hot rodding or pulling trailers or racing up hill - until you get a press charge or 'real' oil in the thing.
You have a very valid point, but I've read before that people bent pushrods on these engines before. How would that be possible with a self adjusting hydraulic lifter? Also, what is a press charge?

Well, I was going to change the fluid, add some ATF. Then fire up the rig and press on the affected rocker, pushrod assembly to again quiet it up, and let it idle off a 1/4 tank of gas with intermittent revs to flush it out. Also, I've read to stop using the crappy Fram oil filters, so I'll switch to another brand. What's a good brand that you can find at an autoparts store. I just found out they got K&N oil filters at Autozone, maybe I'll use that.
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Unread 07-30-2011, 08:16 PM   #18
plym49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ApocalypseJeep View Post
You have a very valid point, but I've read before that people bent pushrods on these engines before. How would that be possible with a self adjusting hydraulic lifter? Also, what is a press charge?

Well, I was going to change the fluid, add some ATF. Then fire up the rig and press on the affected rocker, pushrod assembly to again quiet it up, and let it idle off a 1/4 tank of gas with intermittent revs to flush it out. Also, I've read to stop using the crappy Fram oil filters, so I'll switch to another brand. What's a good brand that you can find at an autoparts store. I just found out they got K&N oil filters at Autozone, maybe I'll use that.
We don't know how 'someone' bent a pushrod, but I guarantee it was not from a lifter with the plunger stuck on the 'loose' side as little as yours is (finger pressure quiets it). A 'press charge' is my horrible touch-typing for 'fresh change' -- sorry about that! Your plan of action sounds good, but it could take a while for the piece to work thru. Don't get discouraged and if you need to, drive it. Just take it easy if you are running diluted oil. The particle will not necessarily care about higher revs. It might work to do some cold starts, where the oil pressure is higher. Heat, pressure and time will work it out. Revs in this case will not make much of a difference.
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Unread 07-30-2011, 08:57 PM   #19
ApocalypseJeep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plym49 View Post
We don't know how 'someone' bent a pushrod, but I guarantee it was not from a lifter with the plunger stuck on the 'loose' side as little as yours is (finger pressure quiets it). A 'press charge' is my horrible touch-typing for 'fresh change' -- sorry about that! Your plan of action sounds good, but it could take a while for the piece to work thru. Don't get discouraged and if you need to, drive it. Just take it easy if you are running diluted oil. The particle will not necessarily care about higher revs. It might work to do some cold starts, where the oil pressure is higher. Heat, pressure and time will work it out. Revs in this case will not make much of a difference.
Well, it's worth a shot. luckly I only live about 2 miles from work with only minor up hills. Wouldn't revs account for heat and pressure though. Higher revs= higher oil pressure and engine temps, right? I will take it easy with the driving it, but it's hard to want drive it when it sounds like crap. Hope it workes itself out.
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Unread 07-30-2011, 09:31 PM   #20
ApocalypseJeep
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I just got off the phone with my mad scientist who fixed my head, and he told me to absolutly not run the ATF and oil mixture for more than 50 miles. I take his advise to heart being that the guy has a whole man cave of drag and circle track racing trophies.Also said to take it real easy, keeping the revs low if possible. What do you guys think? He's not exactly a Jeep guy, but 50+ years in experience is hard to argue.
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Unread 07-30-2011, 10:02 PM   #21
jdubsjeep
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I have only 76K miles on mine and it ticks. When I dropped my oil pan to change the rear main I could see that my cam lobes were quite worn. I have run ATF in many a motor to help clean out the block. 1 day driving, no hot rodding, but don't expect miracles, if the parts are worn there is no substitute for replacement. Wheel it, and don't be so critical to the tick, part of the fun of owning a Jeep is working on them!
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Unread 07-30-2011, 10:24 PM   #22
ApocalypseJeep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdubsjeep View Post
I have only 76K miles on mine and it ticks. When I dropped my oil pan to change the rear main I could see that my cam lobes were quite worn. I have run ATF in many a motor to help clean out the block. 1 day driving, no hot rodding, but don't expect miracles, if the parts are worn there is no substitute for replacement. Wheel it, and don't be so critical to the tick, part of the fun of owning a Jeep is working on them!
I'm with that, but working on a jeep in the hot summer sun, in an apartment parking lot is not fun at all, and believe me, I been working on it alot lately. I can understand a cam wearing out and a lifter tick getting louder and louder over so many miles drivin in an amount of time, but my case is, it was really quiet and smooth running, to loud *** "Screw diver tapping on the valve cover". I understand if I have to replace it, so be it. I just wasn't expecting instant fail on these parts. From what I understand, it's usualy more gradual before not working at all.
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Unread 07-30-2011, 10:44 PM   #23
jdubsjeep
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Just to put it out there, is your oil up to full level, and what is your oil pressure after you engine is warmed up at idle speed? You can bend push rods by over revving the motor and causing the "valves to float", been there and done it. Have you checked under the valve cover again to see if all the pushrods are sqirting oil out of them? It is an easy removal to clean them out if necessary. Torque is 19 ft pounds on the rocker. If all fails get a set of lifters to get you down the road for now. Good luck
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Unread 07-30-2011, 11:03 PM   #24
ApocalypseJeep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdubsjeep View Post
Just to put it out there, is your oil up to full level, and what is your oil pressure after you engine is warmed up at idle speed? You can bend push rods by over revving the motor and causing the "valves to float", been there and done it. Have you checked under the valve cover again to see if all the pushrods are sqirting oil out of them? It is an easy removal to clean them out if necessary. Torque is 19 ft pounds on the rocker. If all fails get a set of lifters to get you down the road for now. Good luck
Oil level is perfect and all valves are flowing oil perfectly across the rockers, as I said, I ran it without the cover to find out which lifters aren't working, and pressed down on them on the rocker arm closest to the pushrod and the ticking went away. When I had to remove the head, I used pressurized air to clear out the push rods and they all looked great.

When I let it warm up,(like I always do) the pressure it at 40, after driving around for a bit after warm up, at a light it sits about 20, but shoots to 40 or slightly above when I start diving again.

By the way, everything that I read was 21 ft pounds on the rocker bridge bolts, and that was the first thing I checked when this started. Also, I've never over reved it, I've never given it anything over 3500 rpm.
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Unread 07-30-2011, 11:21 PM   #25
dodger889
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Just a note: if you do one of the above atf or MMO or seafoam in the crankcase. Do as the others have said to do. I would add to the oil change after the first one cleanup change in about 250 miles. This will catch any of the extra junk that is loosening up.

But to address the lifter and a shortcut check of the the cam is to hand turn over the engine and measure the lift on each side of the valves ( ie. intake and exhaust). Also check the underside of the rocker themselves see if they are worn.

One thing I would do is a compression check before anything actually do leak down one each cylinder this will at least let you know if you do not have a valve seating or sealing problem. .


Now for those trying to explain why you bend push rods it is very simple thing. When a valve hits or is stuck they have to give some where!. Valve float usually will bend the valve itself not the push rod.
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Unread 07-31-2011, 08:44 AM   #26
plym49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ApocalypseJeep View Post
I just got off the phone with my mad scientist who fixed my head, and he told me to absolutly not run the ATF and oil mixture for more than 50 miles. I take his advise to heart being that the guy has a whole man cave of drag and circle track racing trophies.Also said to take it real easy, keeping the revs low if possible. What do you guys think? He's not exactly a Jeep guy, but 50+ years in experience is hard to argue.
I agree with him completely. I mentioned this in my first post on the topic - that I am not a fan of adding snake oil. You might be better off just letting the motor fast idle in the driveway for the time you have the ATF in there. At no load, IOW idling, there is very little stress on the main and rod bearings since the motor does not have to generate much HP to simply idle. Once you drive the vehicle, it is another story.

To answer your other questions, high revs do not build oil pressure since the oil pump has a pressure relief valve. As soon as the pressure hits 40 psi, the valve dumps any extra pressure and you can rev it to 10,000 rpm and the pressure will be 40 psi. The only exception is a very cold (winter) start where the oil is thick from temperature and you might see 50 psi until the oil gets warm.

The idea of the ATF is to help dissolve the crap that is in there as ATF is a good cleaner. Same for MMO or Seafoam. They are to help dissolve, not a high pressure soap, so it is really not necessary to run high rpm or high pressure for them to work.

If you are going to do this, add one quart without draining any oil and just let the motor idle at 1,000 rpm. Then drain and refill with a good quality synthetic. If the noise is still there when you refill it, just drive it: hopefully the ATF will have taken some away from that blockage and with regular driving it will come out.
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Unread 07-31-2011, 08:52 AM   #27
plym49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodger889 View Post

But to address the lifter and a shortcut check of the the cam is to hand turn over the engine and measure the lift on each side of the valves ( ie. intake and exhaust). Also check the underside of the rocker themselves see if they are worn.

One thing I would do is a compression check before anything actually do leak down one each cylinder this will at least let you know if you do not have a valve seating or sealing problem. .


Now for those trying to explain why you bend push rods it is very simple thing. When a valve hits or is stuck they have to give some where!. Valve float usually will bend the valve itself not the push rod.
You are correct that if one or two of his cam pobes are worn, that would cause a rocker arm noise. However, from the information the OP has provided, this should not be the case. First of all the motor is running smoothly. If a cam lobe was wiped out it would be running rough. Also, the problem arose after he had the head off, and he acknowledged that some gasket detritus could have fallen inside. Since the problem followed, it is more likely that a piece of gasket material is at fault as opposed to a wiped cam lobe.
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Unread 07-31-2011, 09:04 AM   #28
Que89YJ
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The old timers used kerocene to do the same thing. Its scary to see the amount of sludge it pushes out.
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Unread 07-31-2011, 11:05 AM   #29
pasinbuy
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Do you know about STP it is a honey thick additive for your oil. To be honest I do not even know if it is still being sold. When I was a kid it was a miracle worker for loud lifters.

What weight of oil do you use and how many miles do you have? If may be time to increase the weight of your oil in order to get a new life from your motor. Next step is rebuild.

Try the STP then on your next oil change go with a thicker oil, you can forget the 10-40, if you want because you live in Nevada and go with a straight 40wt.
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Unread 07-31-2011, 11:29 AM   #30
GAT72991
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All the miracle oil's sound cool, but could be just a band-aid to a problem that could have a serious effect on your engine. Go with the ATF, get a quart in your crankcase and let it idle in the driveway for a while. If you drive it on a short drive keep the RPM's low. It is ideal to get the quart in there and let the engine reach full operating temperature and then give the ATF a while to circulate.

Afterwards, go back with a good synthetic or THE SAME OIL THAT YOU HAVE BEEN RUNNING. If you decide to throw in 10w-40 or 80w gear oil (jk on the gear oil) of course it may quet your problem, but who knows if it's truly a stuck/collapsed lifter? The whole point of this is to keep all variables constant, and just do a good cleaning to determine if the problem is a little piece of sludge/RTV/whatever has caused the problem, or if it's really time for a cam/lifter set.

As far as just changing the lifters, if that IS in fact your issue, cam/lifters should always be changed together with the exception being a roller cam. I'd throw in a cam and lifters, yea it sucks and the $ may not be there right now but it's a good precautionary measure, and that Jeep will run with lifters collapsed and ticking and rods knocking forever while you save the money, as long as you take it easy when you drive it.
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