1994 AX5 to AX15 Conversion - Page 6

moonshinefuel · 11-03-2009, 08:22 AM

If I am reading what you are saying correctly, the pressure plate is continuing clutch the disc some even with the clutch pedal pressed all the way to the floor. So, a possibility exists that the center "hub" ,"spline column", (for lack of better words) is too long on one side. You say the disc would only fit one way, the other way the center spline hub area hits the pilot bushing. So, if the center hub is too long towards the pressure plate tabs where the throwout bearing presses into to release the clutch, it may be possible that the throwout bearing itself is hitting the center hub of the clutch disc, and preventing the full release of the clutch. If this is the case, then it requires removal of the clutch again, and surfacing down the elongated part of the center hub area some to allow further travel, to fully release the pressure plates clutch on the disc. If my memory serves me correctly, I thought someone had mentioned this on a different forum, and this was how they corrected it, but I am not 100% on this. If this is the problem, which I am not sure it is, then do what you have to do to remove some of the center hub length.

moonshinefuel · 11-03-2009, 08:40 AM

Up in post #74, the picture shows two different designs of clutch discs, I am pretty sure the long part of the center hub is designed to go towards the pilot. If this is what you have, then it would require surfacing it down some and flipping the clutch disc with the part you surfaced towards the pilot. I am reaching here a bit because I don't have these parts in front of me to confirm what's going on. Just trying to help and figure out what is going on here.

**UltimatE** · 11-03-2009, 09:02 AM

You know that sounds like a good idea now that you point that out... it does seem to be quite a bit longer than the stock AX-5 clutch disc splines. I'll have to go ahead and rip everything out again (I'm becoming an expert!) and measure the two discs side by side.

moonshinefuel · 11-03-2009, 09:04 AM

You are an expert transmission puller now.
I think this is what is happening, the clutch disc is directional, and designed to fit one way only.

**UltimatE** · 11-03-2009, 09:26 AM

The disc is marked on the "short" side as towards the flywheel, and that is the way I have it installed now. I hope I just have to grind down the clutch spline hub, though how much I won't know until I have it in my hand. If the fingers were contacting the disc, there should be some scaring present; I hope this is the case to give me a good indication if that is the issue.

**UltimatE** · 11-03-2009, 09:34 AM

Scratch that... they spin as a single assembly. Ha.

**Opihi59** · 11-03-2009, 10:11 AM

You're certainly developing expertise here. I really don't recall mention of clutch travel issues in other AX 5 to 15 conversions, and you may very likely need to start a new "how I did it" thread that could make its way into the FAQ since others are going to do this. Obviously I haven't dug thru the thread in the FAQ as much as you have, but I believe I'm going to now for sure for more detail.

A way to test out the theory once you pull the whole assembly out again could be to remove the transmission from the bellhousing, and just reinstall the bell. You won't have the snout of the input bearing retainer to guide the course of the throwout bearing, but you can likely check clearances this way. Leave the dummy plastic input shaft in place so the clutch plate doesnt slip down, and have someone slowly depress the clutch pedal while you watch from below while stopping the clutch fork from slipping sideways. That way you can see what is going on prior to grinding down the spline hub on the Camaro clutch plate. You can also see how it improves (or not) once you have cut down the length of the spline hub on the Camaro disc to match the AX 15 spline hub length. If it all looks good you can drop the bell, bolt up the transmission and reinstall the assembly again.

I may pop back in and edit this some after a bit more reading.

trw · 11-03-2009, 10:41 AM

I got your PM, but I dont think I could be of help.

I went the easy (expensive) way and grabbed all of AA's stuff to get my AX15 in there. This included their pilot shaft, a centerforce clutch disk, an adapter plate that replaced the bearing retainer plate (for the bellhousing) and their swap keeps the factory AX5 bellhousing, flywheel, pressure plate, clutch cylinders, T/O bearing, and shift fork. I also got a new AX15, so the pilot size was the .750.

and ofcourse, everything bolted up fairly easily (minus the Tcase shifter) and works as smoothly as stock components, I did email AA for the measurement and info on the clutch disk if that helps, waiting on their email now.

**UltimatE** · 11-03-2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trw

I got your PM, but I dont think I could be of help.

I went the easy (expensive) way and grabbed all of AA's stuff to get my AX15 in there. This included their pilot shaft, a centerforce clutch disk, an adapter plate that replaced the bearing retainer plate (for the bellhousing) and their swap keeps the factory AX5 bellhousing, flywheel, pressure plate, clutch cylinders, T/O bearing, and shift fork. I also got a new AX15, so the pilot size was the .750.

and ofcourse, everything bolted up fairly easily (minus the Tcase shifter) and works as smoothly as stock components, I did email AA for the measurement and info on the clutch disk if that helps, waiting on their email now.

Thanks, need all the help I can get at this point.

moonshinefuel · 11-03-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltimatE

The disc is marked on the "short" side as towards the flywheel, and that is the way I have it installed now. I hope I just have to grind down the clutch spline hub, though how much I won't know until I have it in my hand. If the fingers were contacting the disc, there should be some scaring present; I hope this is the case to give me a good indication if that is the issue.

Glad to hear you have the disc direction confirmed. Everyone pitching in will figure this thing out. I really don't know what else it could be other than slave throw issues or the internal clutch problem. To me, it has to be one or the other, if I am to understand your description of the problem is perceived correctly.
I don't think the fingers would contact the disc, my thinking is that the throwout bearing is hitting the "rise" in the spline column that may need to be ground down.
I like the test for theory Opihi59 describes. Would be worth considering.
The problem is, I have seen a few different versions of this disc, and some have the elongated snout, and some don't. As mentioned earlier, if memory serves me correctly, I do recall someone else encountering this dilemma in a different forum.

moonshinefuel · 11-03-2009, 11:13 AM

So, you are seeing a little over a half inch from the spring, the end tabs may or may not just bring it a hair higher than that where the bearing contacts.
And if you do indeed have the same disc or very similar as pictured here, the rise is higher than the springs themselves in the disc.
Now, if you calculate how far the fingers are away from the springs, a little over a half an inch, you then have to figure, well, the rise is rising even higher than that above the springs in the disc. Then calculate the the throw, how far are the fingers being pressed in by the slave rod to the release arm, to the throwout bearing pressing in? From the wear I have seen on some input shaft retainers, it may be approx. 1/2 inch, but someone may feel free to correct me on this.

moonshinefuel · 11-03-2009, 11:36 AM

Wait a minute now, the snout rides in front of the bearing retainer and it should not matter should it, unless it is tight against the retainer..Oh snap, you know what, break time.. Anybody have some beer? I think I need one, and one for Ultimate too, or maybe he needs a case of beer, and some Jack Daniels for me.

**UltimatE** · 11-03-2009, 11:39 AM

Opihi -- To answer your question, the retainer that holds the slave fork to the pivot ball. I think when I have the transmission out I will space the pivot ball out a little bit just to give the clutch fork a more perpendicular travel to the throwout bearing.

**Opihi59** · 11-03-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltimatE

Opihi -- To answer your question, the retainer that holds the slave fork to the pivot ball. I think when I have the transmission out I will space the pivot ball out a little bit just to give the clutch fork a more perpendicular travel to the throwout bearing.

Oh, okay. For a moment there I was thinking you had the wrong input bearing retainer on your transmission--the flat faced one for the internal slave instead of the long snout one used on the external slave version. Scrap that thought.

The spring clip thing can very likely be purchased but you may have to go to the dealership. At least you have a photo of what part of it looks like from the photos in that other thread.

trw · 11-04-2009, 10:30 PM

ok, if it helps any, I got an email back from AA:

the clutch dimensions are: 9-1/8" (diameter) x 1-1/8" (disc splines), 10 spline hub