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Unread 01-12-2014, 09:09 PM   #16
rtillery34
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1987 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltWaterRednek View Post
rtillery34 - Are you running the 3.07 gears as well? And you still sling 32's fine?

daddyjeep87 - I've read the '87 came with both the 207 & 231. Being mine is early Canadian build I figure I'm getting the 207 :/. Just my luck.

Also, my ultimate plan would be...
1. Convert fron D-30 to 4.10 and get an 8.8 with 4.10. My buddy has already done this swap and can provide any insight I need.
2. If I'm gonna go throught the trouble to install the np231 I may as well spend the extra $$$ for an AX15 with the external conversion (I already spent too much on the Jeep so why not???)
Yes I'm running the 3.07 gears just fine but I am looking for axels from a 2.5 yj

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Unread 01-13-2014, 04:01 AM   #17
roadyrob
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it could have either case, my 87 came with the 231 and its 21 spline. pretty sure all 87's were made in canada.
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Unread 01-13-2014, 04:12 AM   #18
mudsweatNgearz
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The 207 is actually a little stronger than the 231 TC. 207 has 1-1/4 inch wide chain compared to 1 inch for 231. However as mentioned there is no SYE kit offered for the 207 except for the hack-N-tap option which did not appeal to me so I replaced my 207 with a 231.
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Unread 01-13-2014, 04:35 AM   #19
superj
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mine has a 231 also and built in canada. i think roadyrob is right all were built in canada back in the day.
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Unread 01-13-2014, 08:40 AM   #20
jeepguy85
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The NP207 sitting behind a BA10/5 had a 21 spline input shaft, NOT a 23. The NP231 sitting behind an AX15 came with a 23 spline input shaft. If you swap an NP231 into the 87, you either have to change the input shaft from a 23 to a 21 spline or find a 231 with a 21 spline input shaft like I did. This assumes you are keeping the BA10/5 tranny.
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Unread 01-13-2014, 09:04 AM   #21
jeepguy85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddyjeep87 View Post
Congratulations on the new YJ. The 87 had the np207 transfer case with a 23 spline input shaft, not 21. The biggest issue you have when lifting the Jeep is that there is no SYE kit available for the np207. You mentioned that you were planning fuel injection. I ran the Howell system for many years and was very happy with it.
This is incorrect. The NP207 has a 21 spline input shaft. This is necessary because the output shaft on the Peugeot BA10/5 is a 21 spline output shaft, not 23. If you google, peugeot ba 10/5 output shaft spline count, you will see many discussions on this topic across multiple forums. I also just got through swapping an NP231 into my 87 and kept the BA10/5, so I know this to be 100% true.

https://www.google.com/#q=peugeot+ba...t+spline+count
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Mean Max created Chuck Norris with some spare parts, two trac bars and some differential fluid.
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Unread 01-15-2014, 01:54 PM   #22
SaltWaterRednek
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Well it should be delivered any day now. Guess I'm only hoping it has the 231 (for more future uses).

Also, I have a guy who says he will change the front gears in my 30, as well as build be an 8.8. Surely the taller gears will take more load off the transmission and help the BA-10/5 live a little longer???
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Unread 01-15-2014, 01:57 PM   #23
jeepguy85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltWaterRednek View Post
Well it should be delivered any day now. Guess I'm only hoping it has the 231 (for more future uses).

Also, I have a guy who says he will change the front gears in my 30, as well as build be an 8.8. Surely the taller gears will take more load off the transmission and help the BA-10/5 live a little longer???
Don't stress over the BA10/5. I have 200k on mine. If you are concerned, swap it for an AX15 and NP231 all at once, IF you have the NP207.
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Mean Max created Chuck Norris with some spare parts, two trac bars and some differential fluid.
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Unread 01-18-2014, 03:47 PM   #24
GrEmLiN
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Real quick and dirty response to your questions, but I'll let rip anyway.

Congratulations on your purchase of a legendary vehicle! The YJ was a revolutionary Jeep model and in my opinion, the height of the true meaning and spirit of Jeep. The last of the real AMC/Jeeps. I too have an '87, and I'll tell you from experience, the 87 is a black sheep year for Jeeps, with a few things unique to our Jeeps.

12,000 original miles... wow. For the price you likely paid I can't see doing half the **** to butcher it up you're already dreaming about. I'm not saying don't dream- or even don't butcher. (Maybe a little of that.) I'm just trying to convey that you have a decent little machine and for the uses you stated, she's best left in her pristine original condition. Don't worry about all the fancy upgrades until you start breaking stuff, then you know you need to go bigger.

What's your budget? How far are you trying to take this? Who's doing the work? What's your level of expertise when it comes to fabrication or wrenching?

The BA10 will hold up for another 80-100k miles or much longer if you continue to take care of it. Mine hit 180k (with LOTS of abuse) before the input shaft had so much radial play that it began destroying slave cylinder/throwout bearings (piece of JUNK!!) every month!! Finally after 3 clutches I said stuff it and pulled the trigger on an XJ AX15 and a $40 junkyard transfer case that was full of water when I got it. Through some careful planning that turned out to be one of the most cost effective upgrades with little trouble. Finding the right combination of parts to use took several months of researching.

The 87-89/90 D35's are actually different from 90-up D35s. They aren't C-clip axles like the Ford 8.8 or 90-up D35 or Rubi 44s, the axles are flanged and bolt in from the ends. Better design for reliability sake. If you break an axle your wheel won't come off. See the bottom of this post for the story about how my D35 held up and why I have a D35c now but prefer the original.

The only benefit to the 8.8 I see is gearing and disc brakes, but I like the idea of Wagoneer D44's better. They're the most direct swap that isn't YJ to YJ, are stronger than 8.8's and a ton of aftermarket parts and upgrades for cheap including disc brake kits for a few hundred.

Speaking of gearing, you have 3.07's. They SUCK. Stock tires might be OK but I ran 31s and while I can hit 85-95 on the highway, it eats clutches and isn't good for wheeling or towing (big tires + highway gears = heat and damage) -- 4 cyl YJ axles (4.10 gears, bolt right in) or Wagoneer (3.07, 3.42, 3.73, 4.10 are common I believe, and bolt in with little modification).

The front axle has a vacuum disconnect that uses engine vacuum and switches / sensors to slide a collar over a two part shaft to bridge them for 4wd to work. It's known to fail in due time, or at the worst time. One piece axles (XJ/TJ (for bigger ujoints)) make good junkyard upgrades or a manual actuator cable is good.

The factory Carter BBD carburetors are notorious. Yours likely still has all the smog crap on it... so, ripping out the miles of smog hoses and stuff, plugging the holes for the air injection in the exhaust, and either a carburetor upgrade or tweaking of your factory system sans-smog would be a rather noticeable improvement.

A Holley 350 2bbl carb with a good high-flow air filter and a decent exhaust will make your Jeep a HOT ROD. I put a 500cfm Holley 2bbl on my 87 4.2L and before I put a filter on it I would rip around full throttle and it sounded like a BEAST, so so mean. I want a higher flow filter to get the back, but I used a TBI cold air intake from a 95 Chevy TBI off ebay and it looks trick. $35

Ignition upgrades go a long long long way. The 87 YJ uses a Ford Duraspark module under the washer fluid/coolant overflow tanks. I left that there but I also made my own ignition module using a hobby box from Radioshack and an HEI module for a Chevy V8 and a Ford Mustang E-Coil (from a Fox body) and by carrying a spare coil to dist cap wire I have two, easily switched over ignition systems. The factory Duraspark and the homebrew HEI. Dual onboard ignition modules, dual coils. Only thing I didn't do was build a switch inside the cabin to switch between them remotely, I have to pop the hood and unplug one into the other. (MSD 6A/AL kits are worth every penny, or even the Summit Racing version of a 6AL for $120ish is a massive kick in the pants for a YJ.)

Your transfer case is an NP231-AMC (207 was used behind the Auto trans in 87) -- newer YJ's and TJ's used the NP231-J (Jeep) tcase, which has a different input spline count. If you change the trans out you must change the input gear in tcase or swap tcase out all together. (Or if you can find an AX15 output shaft with the oddball spline count that works too.) There's also three different lengths of input gear/shaft size on the 231J. A short input gear for a long output shaft trans (the shaft sticks out 1/2" past the mounting flange), a mid-length (rare / for a 4 cylinder / AX5) and a longer one that mates to a transmission with a flush output shaft like the BA10 or some vintage AX15s.

Hmm what else.... oh, if you're dead set on lifting your pretty new Jeep (I would be), then I see a few well-engineered ways to do that. With some work, but utilizing your good condition factory springs (with junkyard S10 leaves added in) do a SOA that would be wonderful. Alternatively, some beefy 1-1.5" lift shackles, coupled with an Old Man Emu 2.5" lift kit and your poly 1" body lift (the non-lift poly mounts aren't as easy or cheap to find) would also ride extremely decent, OR a Zone Offroad lift kit is very good too. Cheaper and goes up to 4 inch lift springs. BDS owns Zone. Good stuff. But really I'd say enjoy it as it is for a while or a small 2.5" + 1.5" lift with 30x9.50 MT or 31x10.50 MTs would be really awesome. Bigger tires aren't always better, wider tires don't handle as well and are harder to stop. Also, bigger tires on a small Jeep require less tire pressure or they won't last very long!! Like 28psi max. Do a chalk or paint test to see what yours needs to get the right footprint.


I mean, I could go on and on and on with various other upgrades and tweaks I've found over the years. Everything I did I did for reliability and every part I replaced I made sure was equal to or better than the factory. That's been the theme on my Jeep. I picked it up for $2100 and 5-6 years later I'd be surprised if I have more than $3k into it, including $1600 or more in labor.

(I will say this though, the Holy Grail of Jeep's is the 95 YJ. They are in my opinion the best factory Jeep overall. The 95's specifically. They were built beefier and better than the 94's, and the best year for YJs.)

Any other questions about '87s I'm your man, shoot me a PM. Good luck with your new baby. Don't forget to name her appropriately.


Oh yeah I forgot, the guy who said "some claim D35s break on speedbumps" lol funny story about that... D35's are truly hit or miss. My D35 flanged (non-c-clip) axle blew up going over a crack in the road. I mean one of those small splits in the asphalt that's been filled with tar. You hear the tires go over this "different" terrain but you never feel any bump because it's flat.... that's what blew up my D35. I have a junkyard c-clip D35 (aka D35c) in there now that's held up for a while just fine... both axles have been abused. It's all about how you abuse them.

Actually I blew up my D35 twice. The first time, I hit that tar crack in the road and a piece of pinion launched like an arrow into the diff cover and poked a tiny hole in the middle. Fluid leaked. I popped the cover off in a McDonalds parking lot and pulled out the metal sharks tooth and topped off the oil and went on my way. About a year or more later, on St Patricks night on a dark stretch of road, the rest of the pinion tooth broke off and locked up the ring gear, spun me into oncoming traffic and left me partially blocking the road on a blind curve. Ah, Jeep.

Anyway, good luck. PM if you have any other specific questions.
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Unread 01-18-2014, 05:09 PM   #25
jeepguy85
Bringing down the BFH
1987 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kingsport, Tennessee
Posts: 1,076
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrEmLiN
Real quick and dirty response to your questions, but I'll let rip anyway. Congratulations on your purchase of a legendary vehicle! The YJ was a revolutionary Jeep model and in my opinion, the height of the true meaning and spirit of Jeep. The last of the real AMC/Jeeps. I too have an '87, and I'll tell you from experience, the 87 is a black sheep year for Jeeps, with a few things unique to our Jeeps. 12,000 original miles... wow. For the price you likely paid I can't see doing half the **** to butcher it up you're already dreaming about. I'm not saying don't dream- or even don't butcher. (Maybe a little of that.) I'm just trying to convey that you have a decent little machine and for the uses you stated, she's best left in her pristine original condition. Don't worry about all the fancy upgrades until you start breaking stuff, then you know you need to go bigger. What's your budget? How far are you trying to take this? Who's doing the work? What's your level of expertise when it comes to fabrication or wrenching? The BA10 will hold up for another 80-100k miles or much longer if you continue to take care of it. Mine hit 180k (with LOTS of abuse) before the input shaft had so much radial play that it began destroying slave cylinder/throwout bearings (piece of JUNK!!) every month!! Finally after 3 clutches I said stuff it and pulled the trigger on an XJ AX15 and a $40 junkyard transfer case that was full of water when I got it. Through some careful planning that turned out to be one of the most cost effective upgrades with little trouble. Finding the right combination of parts to use took several months of researching. The 87-89/90 D35's are actually different from 90-up D35s. They aren't C-clip axles like the Ford 8.8 or 90-up D35 or Rubi 44s, the axles are flanged and bolt in from the ends. Better design for reliability sake. If you break an axle your wheel won't come off. See the bottom of this post for the story about how my D35 held up and why I have a D35c now but prefer the original. The only benefit to the 8.8 I see is gearing and disc brakes, but I like the idea of Wagoneer D44's better. They're the most direct swap that isn't YJ to YJ, are stronger than 8.8's and a ton of aftermarket parts and upgrades for cheap including disc brake kits for a few hundred. Speaking of gearing, you have 3.07's. They SUCK. Stock tires might be OK but I ran 31s and while I can hit 85-95 on the highway, it eats clutches and isn't good for wheeling or towing (big tires + highway gears = heat and damage) -- 4 cyl YJ axles (4.10 gears, bolt right in) or Wagoneer (3.07, 3.42, 3.73, 4.10 are common I believe, and bolt in with little modification). The front axle has a vacuum disconnect that uses engine vacuum and switches / sensors to slide a collar over a two part shaft to bridge them for 4wd to work. It's known to fail in due time, or at the worst time. One piece axles (XJ/TJ (for bigger ujoints)) make good junkyard upgrades or a manual actuator cable is good. The factory Carter BBD carburetors are notorious. Yours likely still has all the smog crap on it... so, ripping out the miles of smog hoses and stuff, plugging the holes for the air injection in the exhaust, and either a carburetor upgrade or tweaking of your factory system sans-smog would be a rather noticeable improvement. A Holley 350 2bbl carb with a good high-flow air filter and a decent exhaust will make your Jeep a HOT ROD. I put a 500cfm Holley 2bbl on my 87 4.2L and before I put a filter on it I would rip around full throttle and it sounded like a BEAST, so so mean. I want a higher flow filter to get the back, but I used a TBI cold air intake from a 95 Chevy TBI off ebay and it looks trick. $35 Ignition upgrades go a long long long way. The 87 YJ uses a Ford Duraspark module under the washer fluid/coolant overflow tanks. I left that there but I also made my own ignition module using a hobby box from Radioshack and an HEI module for a Chevy V8 and a Ford Mustang E-Coil (from a Fox body) and by carrying a spare coil to dist cap wire I have two, easily switched over ignition systems. The factory Duraspark and the homebrew HEI. Dual onboard ignition modules, dual coils. Only thing I didn't do was build a switch inside the cabin to switch between them remotely, I have to pop the hood and unplug one into the other. (MSD 6A/AL kits are worth every penny, or even the Summit Racing version of a 6AL for $120ish is a massive kick in the pants for a YJ.) Your transfer case is an NP231-AMC (207 was used behind the Auto trans in 87) -- newer YJ's and TJ's used the NP231-J (Jeep) tcase, which has a different input spline count. If you change the trans out you must change the input gear in tcase or swap tcase out all together. (Or if you can find an AX15 output shaft with the oddball spline count that works too.) There's also three different lengths of input gear/shaft size on the 231J. A short input gear for a long output shaft trans (the shaft sticks out 1/2" past the mounting flange), a mid-length (rare / for a 4 cylinder / AX5) and a longer one that mates to a transmission with a flush output shaft like the BA10 or some vintage AX15s. Hmm what else.... oh, if you're dead set on lifting your pretty new Jeep (I would be), then I see a few well-engineered ways to do that. With some work, but utilizing your good condition factory springs (with junkyard S10 leaves added in) do a SOA that would be wonderful. Alternatively, some beefy 1-1.5" lift shackles, coupled with an Old Man Emu 2.5" lift kit and your poly 1" body lift (the non-lift poly mounts aren't as easy or cheap to find) would also ride extremely decent, OR a Zone Offroad lift kit is very good too. Cheaper and goes up to 4 inch lift springs. BDS owns Zone. Good stuff. But really I'd say enjoy it as it is for a while or a small 2.5" + 1.5" lift with 30x9.50 MT or 31x10.50 MTs would be really awesome. Bigger tires aren't always better, wider tires don't handle as well and are harder to stop. Also, bigger tires on a small Jeep require less tire pressure or they won't last very long!! Like 28psi max. Do a chalk or paint test to see what yours needs to get the right footprint. I mean, I could go on and on and on with various other upgrades and tweaks I've found over the years. Everything I did I did for reliability and every part I replaced I made sure was equal to or better than the factory. That's been the theme on my Jeep. I picked it up for $2100 and 5-6 years later I'd be surprised if I have more than $3k into it, including $1600 or more in labor. (I will say this though, the Holy Grail of Jeep's is the 95 YJ. They are in my opinion the best factory Jeep overall. The 95's specifically. They were built beefier and better than the 94's, and the best year for YJs.) Any other questions about '87s I'm your man, shoot me a PM. Good luck with your new baby. Don't forget to name her appropriately. Oh yeah I forgot, the guy who said "some claim D35s break on speedbumps" lol funny story about that... D35's are truly hit or miss. My D35 flanged (non-c-clip) axle blew up going over a crack in the road. I mean one of those small splits in the asphalt that's been filled with tar. You hear the tires go over this "different" terrain but you never feel any bump because it's flat.... that's what blew up my D35. I have a junkyard c-clip D35 (aka D35c) in there now that's held up for a while just fine... both axles have been abused. It's all about how you abuse them. Actually I blew up my D35 twice. The first time, I hit that tar crack in the road and a piece of pinion launched like an arrow into the diff cover and poked a tiny hole in the middle. Fluid leaked. I popped the cover off in a McDonalds parking lot and pulled out the metal sharks tooth and topped off the oil and went on my way. About a year or more later, on St Patricks night on a dark stretch of road, the rest of the pinion tooth broke off and locked up the ring gear, spun me into oncoming traffic and left me partially blocking the road on a blind curve. Ah, Jeep. Anyway, good luck. PM if you have any other specific questions.
My 87 4.2 BA10/5 came with a 207 sitting behind it. Your statement about the 207 only coming behind autos is not 100% correct.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exparrot View Post
"When Chuck Norris drives, Chuck Norris controls the radio..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneRZA View Post
Mean Max created Chuck Norris with some spare parts, two trac bars and some differential fluid.
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Unread 01-18-2014, 05:27 PM   #26
GrEmLiN
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1987 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwest, Connecticut
Posts: 128
You're correct. *Usually* but certainly not always. Jeep at the time being run by AMC, which was jokingly referred to as "All Makes Combined" because of how they sourced and used various parts. Our YJ's are no different.

My cousin had a YJ that was built in the same factory as mine, with a VIN number only 37 units older than mine, and his was an NP207 as well, where as mine was a 231.

The NP231 can be considered an upgraded version of an NP207. The 207 uses splash lubcrication, the 231 uses a pump, the 231 I believe also had beefier internals... chain, sprockets, etc. Not like a Lou Ferigno difference or anything, I mean just a few little things. Wider chains, lower gear ratio for low range, that sort of stuff.

Good catch!
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Unread 01-18-2014, 05:31 PM   #27
jeepguy85
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1987 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kingsport, Tennessee
Posts: 1,076
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrEmLiN
You're correct. *Usually* but certainly not always. Jeep at the time being run my AMC, which was jokingly referred to as "All Makes Combined" because of how they sourced and used various parts. Our YJ's are no different. My cousin had a YJ that was built in the same factory as mine, with a VIN number only 37 units older than mine, and his was an NP207 as well, where as mine was a 231. The NP231 can be considered an upgraded version of an NP207. The 207 uses splash lubcrication, the 231 uses a pump, the 231 I believe also had beefier internals... chain, sprockets, etc. Not like a Lou Ferigno difference or anything, I mean just a few little things. Wider chains, lower gear ratio for low range, that sort of stuff. Good catch!
The 207 actually has a wider chain than the 231. The 207 is just as good as a 231 in many regards. The 231 has a better ratio and aftermarket support though. That is why I swapped in a 231 AMC behind my BA10/5 in preparation for a 8.8 swap and SYE. Otherwise, I would have left the 207.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exparrot View Post
"When Chuck Norris drives, Chuck Norris controls the radio..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneRZA View Post
Mean Max created Chuck Norris with some spare parts, two trac bars and some differential fluid.
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Unread 01-18-2014, 05:47 PM   #28
GrEmLiN
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwest, Connecticut
Posts: 128
Thanks for correcting me. I knew it was something like that, one beefier than the other.

I learned more information than I could take notes on when I talked to a Jeep guy that worked for Advance Adapters a couple years ago when I did my AX15 swap. He zipped down like everything he knew about Jeep drivelines and internals in our hour-plus phone session. The 207/231, the AX15/3550/BA10, all the different things that interchange and don't. I'm no expert though, he blew me away with all that knowledge.

How many miles you have on your BA10 now jeepguy85? Is it showing any signs of weakness yet? What size tires?
Mine made it to about 183k, lots of abuse on 31s and several weeks of starting in 1st gear and shifting up and down without a clutch. Drove back n forth to work for 2 weeks straight without a clutch... eventually put in a noisy AX15 for the external slave, got tired of blowing slave cylinders every month.
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Unread 01-18-2014, 05:52 PM   #29
jeepguy85
Bringing down the BFH
1987 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kingsport, Tennessee
Posts: 1,076
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrEmLiN
Thanks for correcting me. I knew it was something like that, one beefier than the other. I learned more information than I could take notes on when I talked to a Jeep guy that worked for Advance Adapters a couple years ago when I did my AX15 swap. He zipped down like everything he knew about Jeep drivelines and internals in our hour-plus phone session. The 207/231, the AX15/3550/BA10, all the different things that interchange and don't. I'm no expert though, he blew me away with all that knowledge. How many miles you have on your BA10 now jeepguy85? Is it showing any signs of weakness yet? What size tires? Mine made it to about 183k, lots of abuse on 31s and several weeks of starting in 1st gear and shifting up and down without a clutch. Drove back n forth to work for 2 weeks straight without a clutch... eventually put in a noisy AX15 for the external slave, got tired of blowing slave cylinders every month.
I have 200k on the BA10/5 in my Jeep. I have never thought it was weak. I know people say it is and it is listed as a light duty tranny, but I have no issues with it. I wheeled my Jeep pretty hard when I first bought it, but am not so hard on it now. Tired of having to spend $$$ from breaking stuff. I still wheel it, but I am building it to get me where I want to go on the trail and drive home afterwards. I run 33s, might eventually go to 35s, but I am in no hurry. The 33s run just fine for me.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exparrot View Post
"When Chuck Norris drives, Chuck Norris controls the radio..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneRZA View Post
Mean Max created Chuck Norris with some spare parts, two trac bars and some differential fluid.
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Unread 01-21-2014, 02:27 AM   #30
SaltWaterRednek
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1987 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Hurley, Mississippi
Posts: 47
Gremlin, one of the most detailed write-ups I've ever seen! Thanks SOO much. Lots of useful info there.

Gotta agree with you on the love for the YJ. Loved my CJ's, but the YJ dash was always more appealing to me, and when I bought my 04' Rubicon, that dash reminded me too much like a car.

As I believe I stated earlier, my buddy's aunt had a '92 YJ 4cyl. It was totally base model in white, and she tricked it out with all black accessories. It was a total beach cruiser, though she did mud it some. Back then she ran 31" Thornbirds, and although I know most folks hate them, they did look slick. Anyways, her ahd her husband used to take their boat to the islands for the weekend, and she'd give my buddy the keys, and we were off. I remember every time I rode in that thing. Think that's what I'm trying to create.


As for my mechanical ability, I'd say I'm better than the average Joe, but way behind some of you guys on here. I can do whatever I need to with the right knowledge, time and fund$.

So, I climbed underneath her today... NP207. No biggie, and as long as her and the tranny hold up I'll prob just go with it.
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